Loading Shield - problem

[cmlevy1952]

Of course you are right, however, the story is incomplete. The manufacturer is in the best position to assist with safety issues. How can there be known "issues" when it comes to a gun. If a spring cannot be centered each and every time, unless the user made a glaring error, why is the unmodified gun on the market? It's almost like saying FTEs are okay even if using high quality ammo. The Manual does not address the issue, YouTube which does a better job than the Manufacturer's Manual addresses it to some degree, training courses in general with the same spring/rod assembly design do not address it, my Dealer was of no help, so the user has to find an instructor that is familiar with the proclivity of the Shield to, in essence, jam but in a way that is unusual.

Everything you say is 100% correct. I just believe that the person is the best position to address the issue - the spring may not be centered even if appears to be - should not be omitted from the conversation. When a well qualifed participant in the Forum advises that he has the same problem with the spring so when it jambs on him! he turns it 1/4 of a turn is not acceptable to me. I assume he knew what a centered spring looks like so he should never have had to develop the work around in the first place. Then there's the advice that a certain portion of the spring should appear at the end of the assembly.

These are the very same people that one would get advice from in person. A major manufacturer should be able to produce a gun that does not fail unless the user obviously did something wrong.

So, it remains, is the failure of the slide to lock back and then is the failure of the slide to release after being locked back caused by a failure to "center" the spring or is the wavy sping under compression at fault - a defective spring.

Thanks for the advice re: the loaded mag. Of course you are right. I was just wondering why I was dealing at all with a magazine despite having other guns with the same spring assembly. The answer is that the MANUAL tells you to release the lever with the magazine so you need to go get the magazines already removed from the area. They had already been loaded and the problem combined with the mistake could have cost me big time. Perhaps with having this lever that you are told to release with a magazine by the Manual, they should provide a magazine type device to accomplish the process; one that cannot be loaded. Or they can do away with the recommendation and move to the trigger usage which they shy away from and is only recommended by USERS not the manufacturer.

And now that we know of the "uncentered" magazine and have to wonder about whether we turned it by 1/4 turn, how well of a confined gun is this? I've read about how reliable the gun is yet it has a know defect; an inability to know whether the spring is centered and otherwise properly placed?

And I still don't know if my spring is normal looking.

Thanks,
Chuck

 

[dimitri]

There are many reasons why an autoloading pistol may not work correctly. Probably more than half of those are user error. It is hard for us to tell you if the spring is fine without detailed pictures. If it is indeed not fine, and requires the famous 1/4 turn to work right, I would put it back in the box and send it to S&W to have them rectify it.

When I got my first semi auto, I would gingerly push the slide back and try to lock it back. Those ginger/hesitant motions caused me all sorts of issues. As time went on, I realized that these motions should be forceful. So maybe you are babying it instead of man-handling it.

If I were you, I'd sit in front of the TV, with an empty pistol ( ammo in another room ) and dry fire it 200 times. Reset the trigger, not by short stroking the slide, but by slingshotting it all the back and releasing. Basically, your fingers should be letting go of the slide as it hits the stop. Use this time to dry fire, or not. Up to you. But it will help familiarize yourself with your new gun.

As for the spring, we need pics. With it seated, unseated ( both ends ), whatever you can show us.

Also, what dullh said. Find someone local who can take a look and help you in person. And watch and help as you disassemble/reassemble.

 

[cmlevy1952]

HOW CAN YOU TELL IF SPRING IS CENTERED IF SLIDE IS JAMMED?

If a manufacturer tells you that the centering of the spring is a known error, why do you need to go further. When qualified members have to devise methods of installing the spring is hope that it fires, what do you need to see.

If the slide is stuck back because the spring is not centered, you cannot open the gun unless you hit it with something per CS advice. So what would a picture do? It looks centered and it has been hit with a mallot right on the spring rod. But, again, it is admittedly an error - that only their customers don't know what center is? And how do we know that centering is the issue. When the gun has been taken down after hitting it with a mallet, how do we know its condition at the time of the jamb.

What I cannot get an answer to is whether a compressed spring's rings should look parallel to each other or is it okay if they are unaligned to the adjacent ring; something the user has no control of. Some of the rings gap further on one side of the rod and others gap further on the other side of the rod (Looking down on an open slide laying on its sights, the bottom of the slide and the top of the slide). There is no rhyme or reason. Maybe this is just normal. Now if that is not clear, I would be happy to attach an image.

Chuck

 

[cmlevy1952]

LIMP WRISTING A SLIDE

I deny limp wristing a slide. I have a P938, Beretta PX4 Storm full size, an XDM, a High Standard Victor Military (circa early '90s as a thank you from a Seal/Frogman), and I fully understand your point.

When a manufacturer admits to a problem with the slide and attributes the failure to the failure to center the spring assembly as the likely cause, you can pretty much bet that user error concerning the rack is NOT the issue. It, however, was the issue regarding the insertion of the flush magazine. The first few times I noticed my wrist was limp. After a few whacks, everything loosened up well.

Chuck

 

[Muss Muggins]

If I ever consider purchasing a Shield, I'm re-reading this thread to remind myself why I don't want one . . .

 

[RobzGuns]

What I cannot get an answer to is whether a compressed spring's rings should look parallel to each other or is it okay if they are unaligned to the adjacent ring; something the user has no control of.

I can tell you that my recoil spring assembly has never looked even (made May '12). The spring itself looks 'wavy' (not straight at all) and the gaps between concentric rings are not evenly spaced.

Some of the rings gap further on one side of the rod and others gap further on the other side of the rod (Looking down on an open slide laying on its sights, the bottom of the slide and the top of the slide). There is no rhyme or reason. Maybe this is just normal.

This is how mine looks... When both uncompressed (out of the pistol) and compressed. When I first got it, I wondered about how weird the spring looked for a while, but it shot perfectly, so I shrugged it off.

As far as centering... It would have been nice if S&W would have made the 'shelf' the spring sits on just a bit concave, rather than flat. This would assure that the spring is properly centered, but it doesn't take long to learn the idiosyncrasies and let's face it... Every pistol on the market seems to have their own idiosyncrasies.

If I ever consider purchasing a Shield, I'm re-reading this thread to remind myself why I don't want one . . .

Or... Find someone in your area that OWNS on and see first hand if it's truly an 'issue', or not.

 

[cmlevy1952]

Or a concave area to hold the spring rod. If centering is so important, as it obviously is, and the rod/spring can be inserted improperly to the point that customer service readily admits it, what significant design change would it take to implement either of our concepts.

Thank you so much re: the concentric rings. I thought that physics would require such a situation but it looks like its inelegantly implemented. As I said, there's no rhyme or reason that appears to having the rings move in different directions to the point that it just looks bad.

I hoping to run down to the range for an hour and, hopefully, I will have no problem with the slide jamming for one reason or another associated with the spring. If it jams, I plan on releasing the magazine, laying it down chamber up ... and running like hell.

In this forum, I learned a lot including to look for, and clear finger, tips in addition to brass, when field stripping.

Thanks,
Chuck

 

[RobzGuns]

Or a concave area to hold the spring rod. If centering is so important, as it obviously is, and the rod/spring can be inserted improperly to the point that customer service readily admits it, what significant design change would it take to implement either of our concepts.

LOL... Your reply is what I meant to write, but the words didn't make it to print quite right.

Below is a pic of one of my other barrels showing what we're basically agreeing on, with the 'socket/trough/concave area circled. If S&W did this, it might have eliminated Dozens, if not Hundreds of threads.
But then... Maybe not, as the forum focussed to the pistol this came from ALSO has 'barrel seating' issue threads.

 

[cmlevy1952]

In that the gun seems to operate fine (although it still has not been fired), I had a decision to make. S&W has already emailed me a FedEx label to return the gun for a 2 week turn around. So do I make the return especially in that it is to be used for personal defense?

So I went to my local gunshop/range. Although the gunsmith was not in, two seemingly knowledge regulars behind the counter were fine with going over the gun with me, as well as ammo. They confirmed that the gun racked properly and that the spring was centered. They also confirmed that the spring (which looked terrible in the shop) looked perfectly normal. They thought it was totally unnecessary to send the gun back in.

Having other guns to use, it just seems to me that logic requires an inspection of the gun by the manufacturer. What does it cost me other than 2 weeks. But I thought I would put a box through it and see if there were any failures but I got in line behind two people joining the range. Instead of letting me break in to pay for an hour of range time and a box of ammo, she was starting to go through their booklet/application forms. It made no sense as my purchase was two minutes while their's required going over the long form, explanation of different memberships, insurance, accessories, a photo of your dog with a gun, some checking of identification, etc. (10 min. each). I've learned not to be so sensitive about illogical behavior and so I just walked out. The people that helped me asked why I wasn't staying and I just told them it didn't make sense as to how the check-in was being handled and I didn't want to wait. I guess, maybe I was lucky because if the gun handled a box of ammo without a problem, I never would have sent it back. Now I can make the best judgment without being influenced by the gun that "seemed" to be working well.

Funny, when I saw the spring compressed in the store, I expected them to laugh it looked so bad to me. Nope, it's a beautiful thing!

Chuck

 

[RobzGuns]

Does your spring look like this?
If so... Either It's normal, or mine needs work too, but it's been working fine for 2.5Yrs.

BTW: I don't know how far from the shop/range you live, but if my total reason for going to the range were to test the pistol after the store guys said it looked normal, I would have stuck it out and gotten the 'testing' portion out of the way.

 

[hoc9sw]

My spring looks a lot worse than that, and passed their checks.

Likewise, at my range, you go early or plan an extra half hour to wait. You don't get to jump line, even with premium memberships, unless you are on-duty police/fire on a lunch or break.

 

[cmlevy1952]

Have any of you seen the YouTube videos on replacing the factory spring and the rod? The issues seem to be the difficulty of feeding the spring on the rod and reassembling it when the rod is so short. The standard spring which extends way past the rod may also be the cause of the "not centered" issue. I think the rod IS centered but perhaps the wavy part that extends past the rod is never straight. When uncompressed the assembly is obviously not in a straight line. I guess then the issue is whether it is a of centering once assembled absent an obvious, visual error.

When S&W received my gun back while the slide would not lock, they said it looked fine, not in centered. Therefore they had no explanation. But it no longer was "it wasn't centered " So that excuse is gone.

I have no issues in babying the rack or a magazine so I know that's not the issue.

Interestingly, Sig Sauer recommends a recoil spring replacement EVERY 1,500 rounds on the P938. This seems remarkably low especially from a manufacturer that prides itself on reliability. Their forums discuss the same spring issues from the quick wear and tear but never discuss a centering problem. Springs are cheap like oil changes but who wants to change their oil every 1,500 miles!

I think the modification of the spring and rod may be the best idea as S&W has no clue and after about 400 rounds the spring is getting harder to reassemble. Despite this it did shoot great and somehow I can now center the spring better once I can get it jammed back in? since the rack operates properly.

Does anyone have this reassembly problem with the spring? If so, has anyone developed a method of reassembling the spring without wearing out your hands?is anyone aware of a manufacturer standard as to number of rounds before replacement of the recoil spring?

Chuck

 

[NCW Ray]

Mine used to be a bit temperamental too but it seems to have worked its way out of it. But before that happened what I did was to place the recoil spring in place and try locking the slide back...if no go...I rotate the spring a 1/4 turn and retry it...repeated as necessary until the slide will lock back.

 

[tedburns3]

I agree...the yellow take down lever is not necessary. The ONLY purpose it serves is so you DO NOT HAVE TO PULL THE TRIGGER to disassemble. I never use it...like most people (and Glock owners) just make sure your weapon is empty. Their should not be any ammo or loaded mags in the same room when you are working on a gun...period....

Just remember that this defeats design of the firearm in field-stripping without having to pull the trigger, is less safe, and is not approved nor even mentioned in the manual. The 'Glock' method of field-stripping is rapidly becoming a thing of the past, due to ND in field-stripping/cleaning pistols. I highly recommend following the approved method of field-stripping the pistol.

And I was getting 'dizzy' reading through this thread. To reassemble the firearm, forget about the magazine.

To reassemble and lock the slide back, just hold the slide stop up through the process and it will 'find' the sweet spot and will lock. After only a few tries, one can easily do it blindfolded.

 

[tedburns3]

Much ado about 'nothing'...

If I ever consider purchasing a Shield, I'm re-reading this thread to remind myself why I don't want one . . .

There's nothing but FUD in this thread.

Don't let it discourage you! I've been shooting over 25 years and the Shield may be my favorite 9mm shooter of all!

 

[tedburns3]

In that the gun seems to operate fine (although it still has not been fired), I had a decision to make. S&W has already emailed me a FedEx label to return the gun for a 2 week turn around. So do I make the return especially in that it is to be used for personal defense?

So I went to my local gunshop/range. Although the gunsmith was not in, two seemingly knowledge regulars behind the counter were fine with going over the gun with me, as well as ammo. They confirmed that the gun racked properly and that the spring was centered. They also confirmed that the spring (which looked terrible in the shop) looked perfectly normal. They thought it was totally unnecessary to send the gun back in. [Emphasis added]

Having other guns to use, it just seems to me that logic requires an inspection of the gun by the manufacturer. What does it cost me other than 2 weeks. But I thought I would put a box through it and see if there were any failures but I got in line behind two people joining the range. Instead of letting me break in to pay for an hour of range time and a box of ammo, she was starting to go through their booklet/application forms. It made no sense as my purchase was two minutes while their's required going over the long form, explanation of different memberships, insurance, accessories, a photo of your dog with a gun, some checking of identification, etc. (10 min. each). I've learned not to be so sensitive about illogical behavior and so I just walked out. The people that helped me asked why I wasn't staying and I just told them it didn't make sense as to how the check-in was being handled and I didn't want to wait. I guess, maybe I was lucky because if the gun handled a box of ammo without a problem, I never would have sent it back. Now I can make the best judgment without being influenced by the gun that "seemed" to be working well.

Funny, when I saw the spring compressed in the store, I expected them to laugh it looked so bad to me. Nope, it's a beautiful thing!

Chuck

See underlined part, above.

I think that it's irresponsible and overly prudent in sending an unfired firearm back to S&W when all indicators are to the contrary.

Shoot the darn thing already. One will find the springs loosen a bit after only one range session. The firearm is a joy to shoot- believe it or not- less felt recoil and muzzle flip than with the Beretta 92 series!