AJ
US Veteran
The last is the conversion unit for the 12 ga to .32-20. It fits in the shotgun chamber. In the center of the adapter is the chamber for the .32-20. It has a short barrel built in. It is for close range, I assume. Varmint's?
Loading with a Winchester .32-20 Tool
- Thread starter OrlontheBrave
- Start date
The last is the conversion unit for the 12 ga to .32-20. It fits in the shotgun chamber. In the center of the adapter is the chamber for the .32-20. It has a short barrel built in. It is for close range, I assume. Varmint's?
Green Frog
Member
Ivan, at one time it was common to use converters or adaptors to shoot sub caliber rounds through a larger bore. One would insert the device shown into the chamber of his gun, then put the specified cartridge into the adaptor to fire. They were popular for sub gauge shotgun use (say 410 in a 20 ga) or, like this one, a rifle round in a shotgun. They’re still available, but seem to have fallen out of favor since they only work in break open guns.
Froggie
Froggie
Ivan the Butcher
Member
I finally figured it out just before I read the last two posts. Part of what threw me was the terminology, I have always heard these items called "Chamber Adapters". I even have a number of them, mostly for shooting smaller shotgun rounds in a larger bore. (410 to 20 gauge is perhaps the most common) I also have an all-aluminum 12-gauge adapter for 38 Special. Never used it, as I think it will wear out very fast!
Thanks for the responses!
Ivan
Thanks for the responses!
Ivan
AJ
US Veteran
AJ, the item you show in pictures 1&2 appears to be one of the old full length sizing Ideal/Lyman used to sell for use with the 310 and later with the TruLine Jr press. They basic tools neck sized only, but where FL sizing was needed these dies worked, albeit slowly.
In use the lubed case was pushed in with a press (or sometimes by hammering) then a rod that came with the die was used to push the die back out. I’ll admit, it’s not very fast, but it got the job done back before “full size” presses with FL sizing dies were widely available.
I used a 310 Tool when I first started reloading .38/.357 and ,44 Mag. Then I bought a Lyman Spar-T turret press and gave the 310 to one of my Sgt.'s. About 30 years ago after I retired (retarded?) from the Corps, I began collect stuff gun related. I had a friend that had been given a bunch of reloading stuff as he called it and asked me if I wanted it. Of course, I said yes! He gave me a rather large box of stuff. In it were three 310 Tools, a Lyman Tru-Line Jr. press and about seven die sets. I believe that is where I got that came from.
Now with pictures. Two of the 310's are Lyman and one is an Ideal. Not used anymore, just set out for show and tell.
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Eddie Southgate
Member
Don't know about yours but I have done it quite a bit in the past at a range I used near Decatur Alabama .
Ivan the Butcher
Member
I never loaded at the range. But when shooting black powder, I de-cap all the fired cases when the session is over. I then drop them in a half jug of blue windshield washer fluid, to soften the powder fouling and prevent the case darkening.
I had friends that did load development at the range but started with a large container of sized and primed cases. They would add powder and seat bullets at the range.
Ivan
I had friends that did load development at the range but started with a large container of sized and primed cases. They would add powder and seat bullets at the range.
Ivan
AJ
US Veteran
Sorry, if I had the nomenclature wrong.
Green Frog
Member
I ran a rifle range in a Boy Scout summer camp. I carried a small container (perhaps an ammo can?) with an Ideal #3 tong tool (pre-310) and supplies to load 32 revolver rounds for a low wall Winchester I’d had converted to 32 H&R and had taken with me to camp that year. Fun when I’d seen too many ankle biters and crumb crunchers!
Froggie
Froggie
OP
OrlontheBrave
Member
Hello friends,
I’m afraid I might need to put my dreams of reloading at the range on hold. Here are the results, 7-yards offhand at a 3” shoot-n-see.
The flyer is mine. More tearing than I would like, but 3.2 grains of W-231 doesn’t exactly produce a speedy projectile.
The problem is that the rounds were a bear to chamber, to the point where some wouldn’t seat all the way, leading to headspace issues. Rounds dropped more easily into some chambers than others, leading me to think that this is the result of slightly different chamber specs and not resizing the brass. I tested chambering later with some factory rounds and they slipped right in. I’ll thoroughly clean the chambers later in case they’re just grimy, but I might hold off using the tool again until I acquire a .32-20 firearm with one chamber instead of six.
I’m afraid I might need to put my dreams of reloading at the range on hold. Here are the results, 7-yards offhand at a 3” shoot-n-see.
The flyer is mine. More tearing than I would like, but 3.2 grains of W-231 doesn’t exactly produce a speedy projectile.
The problem is that the rounds were a bear to chamber, to the point where some wouldn’t seat all the way, leading to headspace issues. Rounds dropped more easily into some chambers than others, leading me to think that this is the result of slightly different chamber specs and not resizing the brass. I tested chambering later with some factory rounds and they slipped right in. I’ll thoroughly clean the chambers later in case they’re just grimy, but I might hold off using the tool again until I acquire a .32-20 firearm with one chamber instead of six.
Ivan the Butcher
Member
I have a JM Marlin 1894 CL from the late 80s/early 90s in 32-30. It shoots very well with any ammo you put in it! I like my slow lead rounds that are for my 1902 S&W and 1919 PPS Colt. It equally likes the very hot jacketed rifle rounds from a Brian Pierce article from when it was new. I keep the rounds separated in storage, as well as I know I will never shoot jacketed ammo in my century old revolvers!
I think your groups would settle down with a full length resizing of your brass. However, 32-20 brass has a .010" neck wall thickness as opposed to more modern cartridge with a .015" thickness. If your brass varies very much in length, when you crimp/seat the bullet, the longer cases catch on the crimp groove and cause a bulge in the case. (Often not visible!) Since you don't need to worry about "Magazine tube crush", adjust your seating die to lessen the crimp and also possibly lengthen the "Over All Length" (OAL). If you are buying bullets, they may be different for one vender to another, even though they have the same mold number. And that has been known to cause problems.
Ivan
I think your groups would settle down with a full length resizing of your brass. However, 32-20 brass has a .010" neck wall thickness as opposed to more modern cartridge with a .015" thickness. If your brass varies very much in length, when you crimp/seat the bullet, the longer cases catch on the crimp groove and cause a bulge in the case. (Often not visible!) Since you don't need to worry about "Magazine tube crush", adjust your seating die to lessen the crimp and also possibly lengthen the "Over All Length" (OAL). If you are buying bullets, they may be different for one vender to another, even though they have the same mold number. And that has been known to cause problems.
Ivan
Green Frog
Member
Ivan,
I’m wondering whether trimming all the cases to a consistent length might also help. Also, a taper/factory type crimp might help him as well, just as long as the bullets don’t back out under recoil.
I have currently own three 32-20s. Besides the obligatory ‘20s vintage M&P, I currently have a Uberti SAA, and the Ruger Buckeye 32 combo with the 32-20 cylinder. In all likelihood at my twilight, the only one I’ll be able to justify keeping will be the Ruger... it really can just about do it all.
Gimme all the loading wisdom you all are willing to share!
Froggie
I’m wondering whether trimming all the cases to a consistent length might also help. Also, a taper/factory type crimp might help him as well, just as long as the bullets don’t back out under recoil.
I have currently own three 32-20s. Besides the obligatory ‘20s vintage M&P, I currently have a Uberti SAA, and the Ruger Buckeye 32 combo with the 32-20 cylinder. In all likelihood at my twilight, the only one I’ll be able to justify keeping will be the Ruger... it really can just about do it all.
Gimme all the loading wisdom you all are willing to share!
Froggie
I use a factory crimp die for all my cartridges used in a tubular magazine: 32-20, 38-40, 30-30, and even a 348, which has a lot of recoil! A factory crimp die will handle it.
As Ivan said, it is easy to bulge a 32-20 case when crimping with a roll crimp, requiring all cases to be the same length. While not entirely necessary, it helps to seat then crimp in two separate steps when using a roll crimp. A factory crimp die is more forgiving with case length but is a separate step after bullet seating.
If your brass won't hold a crimp, anneal them. Easily done with a propane torch as seen on many Youtube videos.
I have a copy of Ken Waters "Pet Loads for the 32-20 Revolver" and one of his findings was that the 32-20 benefited accuracy wise with a good crimp.
I keep my 32-20 brass separated by manufacturer as there often is quite a bit of difference in length, especially between R-P and Winchester. This helps to keep trimming to a minimum.
John
As Ivan said, it is easy to bulge a 32-20 case when crimping with a roll crimp, requiring all cases to be the same length. While not entirely necessary, it helps to seat then crimp in two separate steps when using a roll crimp. A factory crimp die is more forgiving with case length but is a separate step after bullet seating.
If your brass won't hold a crimp, anneal them. Easily done with a propane torch as seen on many Youtube videos.
I have a copy of Ken Waters "Pet Loads for the 32-20 Revolver" and one of his findings was that the 32-20 benefited accuracy wise with a good crimp.
I keep my 32-20 brass separated by manufacturer as there often is quite a bit of difference in length, especially between R-P and Winchester. This helps to keep trimming to a minimum.
John
Eddie Southgate
Member
Hello friends,
I’m afraid I might need to put my dreams of reloading at the range on hold. Here are the results, 7-yards offhand at a 3” shoot-n-see.
The flyer is mine. More tearing than I would like, but 3.2 grains of W-231 doesn’t exactly produce a speedy projectile.
The problem is that the rounds were a bear to chamber, to the point where some wouldn’t seat all the way, leading to headspace issues. Rounds dropped more easily into some chambers than others, leading me to think that this is the result of slightly different chamber specs and not resizing the brass. I tested chambering later with some factory rounds and they slipped right in. I’ll thoroughly clean the chambers later in case they’re just grimy, but I might hold off using the tool again until I acquire a .32-20 firearm with one chamber instead of six.
Looking at the round pictured in your first post it looks like you are shaving lead on one side. Could the shaving still clinging to the side of the case by the crimp explain a chambering issue ?
OP
OrlontheBrave
Member
I'm starting to see the advantage now of full length resizing, flaring the case mouth, and crimping. Of course I did them when I used normal dies on my single stage press, but I don't think I fully appreciated them until now that I've seen what happens when you don't do them.
Eddie, I think you're right. I cleaned the chambers and tried reseating the empty brass, and they seated a lot more smoothly. Normally I'd fix the issue by flaring the case mouth before seating, but of course the Winchester tool doesn't allow for that. Next time I use it I'll try just scraping off the shaved lead with a fingernail before seating. Not ballistically ideal, but if I were going for 'ballistically ideal' I probably wouldn't be using a Winchester hand tool . . .
Eddie, I think you're right. I cleaned the chambers and tried reseating the empty brass, and they seated a lot more smoothly. Normally I'd fix the issue by flaring the case mouth before seating, but of course the Winchester tool doesn't allow for that. Next time I use it I'll try just scraping off the shaved lead with a fingernail before seating. Not ballistically ideal, but if I were going for 'ballistically ideal' I probably wouldn't be using a Winchester hand tool . . .
Ivan the Butcher
Member
First off: It never hurts anything to have all your brass the same length! Lyman #45 lists trim to length as 1.305". Lee trimmers will produce different lengths for different brands because they index off the inside of the case. For consistent length of multiple brand brass index off the bottom of the rim.
My opinion on load data: Lyman is very accurate! Problem is, Lyman #45 & #46, velocities are listed as Rifles. When you subtract 18 or 20 inches of barrel length and add a cylinder gap, You get revolver velocities. But people get scared.
Lyman #45 most accurate load with 115 grain bullet 3118 or 311359 w/GC
14 grains of IMR or H 4227 vel of 1865fps in 24" barrel ?(at 50 fps per inch velocity loss, a 4" revolver would be 865 fps. Reality, is little different than that.
Lyman #46 most accurate load is listed at 5.5 gr Unique and listed at 1390fps for 24" barrel, subtract 1000 fps for 4" revolver and that would be 390 fps. Reality is a lot faster than that! (VERY GOOD LOAD!)
Both of the above loads work well in GOOD CONDITION 100-year-old revolvers!
I use lots of WW231 and it works well in my revolvers. From Hodgdon's website: 115 LRNFP 3.2gr 839 fps/ 3.5 915 fps from 5.5" barrel. The 3.2gr load worked great in my revolvers. (3.2 gr is a VERY GOOD LOAD!)
I tried Trail Boss with this bullet and I didn't get good results. The size of the air gap makes a big difference on accuracy, and I didn't like the results.
BTW Both Lyman editions recommend Rem 6 1/2 primers. I've always used Win or CCI Small Pistol Standard in 32-20
Ivan
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Eddie Southgate
Member
A problem you often have with the fixed chamber tools is that they are really only designed to seat correctly one bullet design and with the Winchester tool thats gonna be a Winchester mold. A Ideal/Lyman mold might be real close but any difference in crimp groove location or nose shape and length can cause problems. Don't take much difference. Watch Ebay for the .32WCF mold to go with the tool, kinda neat to have anyway. I have them for .30WCF, .38WCF,.32 Winchester Special, .38-55, .44WCF and probably a few others that I can't think of right now. I never gave more than $85 for one and most were closer to $55 but I was always willing to wait for one with all it's parts and clean cavity to come along in those price ranges.
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