Local gun shops concerned this could happen to them?

F

Frank121

Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2016
Messages
395
Reaction score
996
Mention was made in another bike forum thread by a gun shop fellow that some new in box gun prices bought online are less than their gun shop's dealer cost. I don't know about a dealer's cost of a gun, but I do know that recently in several gun shops and gun shows I have seen prices on fairly common guns such as a Ruger LC9S that were almost $90 higher with tax than the same gun ordered on line that came with free shipping plus the FFL charge. That is quite a difference when you are talking $319 vs. $406.

I used to work with some bicycle shops many years ago (no longer in that hobby) and they had a situation when large bike name-brand companies would require them to buy a minimum number of bicycles to stay as an authorized dealer or even to get any bikes from the company. This almost always came with a "no returns" policy from the big bike company...they were now the property of the local bike shop.

The problem began when the bike companies and distributors began selling their unsold inventory at the end of the bike season to primarily large online bike sellers (Colorado Cyclist for example) at clearance prices lower than the local bike shops paid at dealer cost. The local bike shops were then faced with having to try and sell a bike that was priced more than someone could order it online and ended up having to take a loss on each sale.

The problem got drastically worse and became a vicious cycle when the bicycle companies and distributors not only started selling excess inventory at below dealer's cost, but also started to advertise a "better newer faster stronger" (BNFS) next year model to the public to try and generate interest and future sales.

This situation was made worse for local bicycle shops as as overall bike sales began slowing and bicycle companies and distributors relied more and more on the "better newer faster stronger" model to try to generate more demand and get more sales. The fire sale of last year's models and announcements and advertisements of the BNFS models started coming earlier and earlier each year. This resulted in potential buyers not wanting to buy the current floor model bikes and waiting for the BNFS ones to arrive next year.

This caused the local bike shop to get squeezed even earlier in the season than usual. Not only could they not sell the current model at a profit, they sometimes couldn't even move them at a loss because the new next year models were promised to be such revolutionary products. That meant the local bike shop had to carry the unsold current model over the winter and then had to try to sell a now one year old non-BNFS model in a slowing sale environment the next bike season. That didn't work well at all.

This business model was not a viable one for most of the smaller bike shops. Minimum order requirements were increased by the big bike companies and distributors to make up for slowing overall bike sales, resulting in the smaller local bike shops having to quit carrying those brands. Other lesser-known bike brands who were willing to sell in smaller quantities to the local bike shops had less desirable (read that as not as publicized to the masses through expensive bike magazine advertising and professional Tour de France level bike racing team sponsorships or having cheaper components) bikes and/or charged a higher price per bike on smaller purchases by the local bike shops.

The bike component manufacturers soon followed suit by allowing their name brand components to not just be sold by local brick and mortar dealers, but by the online catalog bike component sellers. In many cases, the local bike shop owners told me that reduced their component sales and service business significantly and that it became cheaper for them to buy components from the on-line catalog sellers than it was to buy from the manufactures and distributors.

The result of this unscientific finding by me? With no consideration or protection of the local brick and mortar stores by the manufacturers and distributors, not one of those small bike shops is in business today. No doubt there are innumerable factors that brought about the demise of these local bike shops, but for two of the ones that closed the owners told me it was a direct result of the bike companies' actions described above. I don't know that bike and gun shops are a mirror comparison, but I do hope that the impact the bike companies had on their loyal small bike shops doesn't come to pass in the gun world.
 
Last edited:
Register to hide this ad
Fortunately or unfortunately the internet is the direction that the American consumer has pushed things. Many only care about price. Service is a secondary concern.

I can understand if you live in an area where gun shops don't exist or the selection is small.

Brick and mortar stores are already in trouble. Gander Mountain, Sears, JC Penny to name a few. It concerns me because as more stores close or go out of business, the consumer is creating a monopoly of internet sellers and big box stores that can compete with the internet. Our choices will be limited locally which will drive up prices. By not supporting small business, we will pay more later.
 
Friend of mine had a shop selling and servicing lawnmowers, chainsaws and other landscaping equipment. He got so frustrated that he finally hung a sign saying "If you bought it on the internet, get it fixed on the internet!"
 
At my lgs, besides the mandatory training sessions for new hunters & CCW licensing, the only guns they keep in stock are used guns bought from folks looking for a quick sale. Their prices for those guns are not attractive to me. As with me, most of the folks there, are doing internet sales transfers. The owner told me a few years ago that the $25 he nets on a transfer is greater than the margin he makes on new inventory. Plus, he has no investment to risk. Lately, he's been exhausting his ammo inventory. Can't compete with the Walmart. I don't know where this is heading. I do know that "the last man standing" in any given market area will be able to charge anything they want for transfers. It's not gonna get any better, it'll only get worse. I try to throw as much bidness to my lgs, but he keeps so little ancillary inventory and his used guns are so overpriced, I find it hard to do. I do know that when this internet buying started the only gun store in my county (still a fur piece from me) that would do it was charging $100 per.
 
Last edited:
Tyrod said:
At my lgs, besides the mandatory training sessions for new hunters & CCW licensing, the only guns they keep in stock are used guns bought from folks looking for a quick sale. Their prices for those guns are not attractive to me. As with me, most of the folks there, are doing internet sales transfers. The owner told me a few years ago that the $25 he nets on a transfer is greater than the margin he makes on inventory. Plus, he has no investment to risk. Lately, he's been exhausting his ammo inventory. Can't compete with the Walmart. I don't know where this is heading. I do know that "the last man standing" in any given market area will be able to charge anything they want for transfers. It's not gonna get any better, it'll only get worse. I try to throw as much bidness to my lgs, but he keeps so little ancillary inventory and his used guns are so overpriced, I find it hard to do. I do know that when this internet buying started the only gun store in my county (still a fur piece from me) that would do it was charging $100 per.
Click to expand...

If this guy can't make more than $25 for a used gun then he doesn't know what he's doing. Used guns and accessories is where the money is. Transfer fees is gravy on top.
 
I'm pretty sure one of the gun stores near me buy used to help sell new. Their mark up on used is pretty small. I know what a good price is on a used gun and they have good prices. They will also dicker a little on a used gun. I've purchased several used from them and always got a good deal.

The other gun store near me has a few new guns but most of his business is internet sales. He doesn't have much inventory but he has a pretty good website that can order anything the distributor has available. I just punch the keyboard a few times and the gun shows up at his store. I go in, do the paperwork and walk out with the gun. Prices are about as low as any other website and I don't have to deal with the shipping. He takes care of the transfer and shipping, no charge. This is sort of a hybrid business, doesn't get any better than than that.
 
Last edited:
Tyrod said:
I didn't explicitly say $25 on a used gun. I meant $25 on a new gun and changed my op to reflect that.
Click to expand...

I buy from my local area gun shops when they have the gun I am looking for. Since most of my purchases were vintage S&W revolvers that they didn't have I asked about their FFL transfers.

One is $45 and doesn't really promote that. The others, from $20 to $25, said they would be glad to take $20/25 all day for no more work than they have to do on an FFL. They only do FFL to FFL transfers (no individual to them) which is fine with me.

All of the shops I deal with are run by very nice employees and provide customer service I couldn't get online.
 
Undercutting the retail channel is bad business. That's different than someone, presumably a FFL, selling on an auction site. They aren't the manufacturer selling directly to the public, they are on line retailers selling to the public.

The local FFL can always refuse to do transfers on guns sold by someone else. There is some risk to that, but it's one thing that can be done.

Personally, I prefer to buy from local shops if they have or can get what I want. The two that I have recently bought from will not deal on new guns, but one definitely will deal on used guns.

Local shops that don't list their inventory on their websites are at a distinct disadvantage against those that do. While I like to go into shops and look at what they have, I'm not likely to drive 60 or more miles just to see if they have something interesting. I will drive that distance if they have something I want listed on their website.

I have difficulty understanding why many gun shops are so mired in yesterday's technology. Many are still doing paper 4473s.

I bought my snowblower from a brick and mortar local shop. That might need service and the guy that I bought it from told me that if it does, he'll come and pick it up at no charge. Other shops charge up to $75.00 to pick up a machine, even if it's for a warranty repair. At least that's what they charge if you bought the machine through a big box stores.

The guy I bought mine from told me that he does warranty work on big box store bought machines. He also told me that they go to the end of the line. He takes care of the machines bought from him, then gets to the other stuff. For the $100.00 or so that buying at a big box would save me, it's worth it to buy from him.

Sears has been in financial trouble for years. On line retailing has added to their woes, but they were going down the drain for a long time before that. Same with Bradlees, Aims, and Caldor. All were gone before the internet was even a dream. Ann and Hope, Woolworth, and others too.

Retail sales are a business with great profit potential, but also great potential to go broke. Certainly GM and Chrysler didn't go belly up because of the internet. They went bankrupt because they made an unreliable product that was built like *******.
 
Didn't read all that but I can tell you that some of it has to do with the buying power of the store. My local store moves A LOT of inventory. They'll often buy 500, 1000 and up units for much much cheaper than it would cost to buy 10 or 20. There years ago they were selling POF 308 ARs for $1499 while the typical price was $2499. They did this because they bought over 500 units. Before that they had the FN FNX 45 tactical with red dot. Normal price was over $1000, they were selling for $699. Again, because they bought over a thousand of them.

They have brand new Sig 229 now for $579

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
 
I have heard that Sam's Club sells tires at prices below what smaller tire stores have to pay for tires. I'd sort of believe that, as at least in my area, I usually end up buying at Sam's after checking everyone else's tire prices - with one exception, that being Pep Boys. And that's because Pep Boys usually has sales.
 
I gave up on the online gun buying game long ago. The total OTD always came out close enough to my LGS price that it just wasn't worth it. I always give my LGS first crack at my money. The difference has to be enough to make me not support my local shop.
 
Fishslayer said:
I gave up on the online gun buying game long ago. The total OTD always came out close enough to my LGS price that it just wasn't worth it. I always give my LGS first crack at my money. The difference has to be enough to make me not support my local shop.
Click to expand...
Same here. Only time I do do it is when it's something specific that the LGS can't/don't have and it's usually bought on one of the boards. And I do it very rarely

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
 
Nothing wrong with supporting local business. Sadly, most new businesses go under, just like any venture, few succeed, most fail. Nice people who work hard and risk much may not be astute businessmen. I see really nice restaurants, in great locations, that are packed at mealtimes, that go under. Business now has to change with the times to remain viable and profitable. It's hard, and with all the options available, every customer is precious to a small business. I can only think of one LGS around here that isn't a pawn shop. They also have an indoor range and teach CC classes.
 
wbraswell said:
I can only think of one LGS around here that isn't a pawn shop. They also have an indoor range and teach CC classes.
Click to expand...

A lot of shops went under in the past eight years. Biggest gripes I've seen on my local forums are customer service (or lack of) and outrageous prices.

This is where the free market guys chime in with "You can charge what you want!"

And a lot of guys rode that battle cry right into bankruptcy.

Lots of the people I see getting griped about are former cops & .mil. They're used to people putting up with their BS just because. That's not how it works in the real world.

OTOH my favorite range is going under. Great people, clean range, great Yelp, training, classes, etc. Just couldn't compete with a bigger place up the street.
 
Last edited:
Internet works both ways. I found a local FFL as a result of buying something from a large internet outfit. They figured out a symbiotic relationship.
What I mean is the internet outfit couldn't make the sale to me without the local place (brick and mortar I might add). The local place made a cash sale (transfer fee) and new customer because they linked themselves as a preferred transfer dealer to the internet site.
Since the local place I discovered as a result of this transaction is pretty good about responding when I am in the market for something I shoot him an email and I ask if he can get it, if so I'll buy it from him. He'll respond that yes he can and a price or he will say he can't but if I find it somewhere else he'd be glad to transfer it. The large internet outfits are putting customer in his door. His good customer service is bringing them back. Win win.
 
Last edited:
Arik said:
Didn't read all that but I can tell you that some of it has to do with the buying power of the store. My local store moves A LOT of inventory. They'll often buy 500, 1000 and up units for much much cheaper than it would cost to buy 10 or 20. There years ago they were selling POF 308 ARs for $1499 while the typical price was $2499. They did this because they bought over 500 units. Before that they had the FN FNX 45 tactical with red dot. Normal price was over $1000, they were selling for $699. Again, because they bought over a thousand of them.

They have brand new Sig 229 now for $579

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Tanners?

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
 
I bought a brand new in box G27 Glock for $400 and a new XDM 3.2 compact for $500 online. That was the beginning of the end of my LGS wanting to do transfers for me. He made it real plain without saying so that he didn't want my business anymore. After he shorted me a magazine on a gun transfer that was the last time I did business with him.
Anymore on new guns I compare online pricing with my LGS. More often than not my LGS gets the gun order not the online store. By the time I figure in freight and transfer fee my LGS price is often within pennies and often he has the gun in stock.

I just bought an LC9s Ruger at a LGS for $312 otd. I have yet to see an online gun for that low price.

Bottom line is compare pricing before hitting the submit for an online gun or plopping money on the counter at an LGS.
 
Last edited:
Not far from me (less than a mile) is a "Dealer" whose entire business is doing firearms ransfers for those buying off the internet - $20. He occasionally might have a used gun in his display case for sale, and also will search for the best price for whatever gun a customer might want. But he has no inventory to speak of. He's been there for over ten years that I know of, and seems pretty busy all the time.
 
local dive shops have smilier problems with scuba equipment. Dealers want minimum purchase amounts and often impose minimum advertised prices, but then let on line dealers sell for pretty much anything they want.

This is aggravated by EU rules that allow dealers and wholesalers over there to sell at very low mark up to authorized and non-authorized on line dealers here in the US, enabling them to undercut brick and mortar dealers.

----

Local gun shops have different, but similar problems.

For example some firearms companies have also required minimum initial and annual purchases amounts to retain a dealership.

In the past it was also easier to order a specific firearm. If a customer came in wanting something not in stock, you could order it from the whole sale and have it about a week. Now, you often have to submit your order around the same time as the Shot Show, and it will arrive whenever it is finally produced, forcing a local gun shop to predict what is going to be in demand and what it will be able to sell over the next year.

A few companies will also allocate in demand firearms to certain shops, but that is also based on sales numbers for less in demand fire arms, so in effect if they want a high demand firearm they have to agree to buy and sell a lot of not so in demand firearms.

Those policies all feed on-line sales, either directly to the customer via action sites, in order to move the stuff they've been forced to purchase, or indirectly by selling that inventory off to other shops where the demand exists - which jacks the price up on those items as the factory, the original dealer and the dealer actually selling it all end up making money (and paying shipping).

----

It would be in the interests of local gun shops to put the brakes on on-line sales from large on line retailers, since those are the retailers that undercut their local business. But, there will always be a local FFL willing to make $20 off a transfer.

The fault really lies with the customers who are willing to save cash buying on line. Ironically, after paying the shipping and transfer fee, the actual savings are not all that great, particularly if the customer lives in a state that levels the playing field by charging sales tax on on-line sales.

What the customer fails to realize is that buying locally allows you tho fully inspect the firearm before you buy it, and way back in the day when local guns shops took their job seriously, they would also inspect all the firearms that came in closely for defects.

Some of it however is also the fault of LGS's today. For example, I recall Remington shipping a Model 7 that had a warped stock that pressed on the barrel. We called to send it back and Remington offered us a hefty discount to just keep it. We didn't want to sell factory seconds so we declined. However, I have no doubt that Model 7 ended up on the rack in a department store or big box gun store, and they probably got it at the same super low price it was offered to us.

That used to be the difference between buying at a LGS versus a department store. Unfortunately, the first time many LGS staff no longer careful inspect firearms that come in - as evidenced by how many I see with issues, as I insist on fully inspecting a new firearm before I purchase.

Worse is what happens if you have a defective firearm. Way too many LGS's are going to tell you to return it to the manufacturer on your own, instead of swapping it out for another than have in stock, or handling the return for you. With that LGS attitude, they are offering no real advantage over just buying on line.
 
I agree a lot with the above. I am usually looking for something very specific when it's time to buy. I've browsed a few LGSs in the last few years, I'm not very impressed. I would rather pay a bit more to a local mom and pop, but not if I get no service and or treated like ****. There's a couple places I don't mind going into but for the most part, I'd rather just order it and not have to deal with somebody telling me they only sell 22WMR not 22 Magnum or that my AR is **** what I really need is this awesome WASR.

This isn't just gun shops though, it's pretty much everywhere. My mail lady hates me I think😀

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
 
If the local stores don't want to compete with the better prices on the internet then I will buy for the net all day long. That's not just for guns.

Friends don't let friends buy a Taurus
 
amcline82 said:
If the local stores don't want to compete with the better prices on the internet then I will buy for the net all day long. That's not just for guns.

Friends don't let friends buy a Taurus
Click to expand...

What people don't understand is that many internet sellers have no or very little overhead. So it's impossible for a mom and pop stores to compete.

With little or no overhead an internet seller can stock up on guns or in most cases place your order with a distributor and have it shipped directly to you. The more guns they sell, the better the prices they get from the distributor. And if they move a lot of guns they usually have first choice of hard to find guns. The distributors play favorites and the mom and pop stores don't have a chance in hell.

All over a saving a few bucks. :rolleyes:
 
Buying online......

When i add shipping and transfer fees to the great price I got on the internet, it doesn't look like such a great price any more.

I buy from both the internet and the brick and mortar stores. Nobody has an exclusive on my business,
 
Kanewpadle said:
What people don't understand is that many internet sellers have no or very little overhead. So it's impossible for a mom and pop stores to compete.
Click to expand...
It's impossible to compete on price, but they can certainly compete on service.

Sadly, it's the "service" where local gun shops start to fall down and it goes beyond a failure to do good inspections of all the firearms they stock to ensure the customer gets a quality firearm

Yesterday for example, I bought another FEG P9 Hi Power (I like them and they can still be found in excellent condition at good prices). The local gun shop had a P9 and a 1st gen P9M. I asked to look at them, given that they are surplus, the excellent exterior appearance isn't the full story so I wanted to field strip them. The guy showing them to me said "no" but was immediately over ruled by his daughter who pointed out I'm a regular and I made a lot pf prior purchases.

She recognized the situation for what it was and in the process made a sale. He stood there looking constipated as I field stripped the P9M, and discovered a rusty and pitted bore and some other internal rust. I showed him the rust and then rejected it as an option (although I may reconsider if they'll knock $100 of the already very reasonable price to cover the cost of a new barrel.)

The P9 got the same treatment, and while it was only about 95% on the bluing, the internal condition was great. So it went home with me.

A surplus FEG P9 is not a firearm I am inclined to buy on-line for the reason made obvious above, and I won't buy one locally if I cannot fully inspect it. The ability to allow a customer to inspect, and/or a no questions asked return policy is the "service" that a local gun shop can offer in this kind of situation and it adds value over an on-line purchase, and thus can justify a higher local purchase price.

In this case, it meant I bought an NRA "very good", near "excellent" condition FEG P9 for $329 ($352 with tax), when I would not buy the same pistol on-line for the $279 they've been selling for recently (given that an on-line purchased FEG P9 would quite possibly be in only "fair" condition, and after shipping and transfer fees would cost around $325 anyway). And if it had a rusty bore I'd be out of luck.

The lack of service applies to accessories as well.

For example, we have another shop in the area where I spend very little money. The reasons are obvious. Recently I was looking for a speed loader for a 686+, nothing fancy just an HKS 587. I could get one on Amazon for $10 with free two day shipping with Amazon Prime. However, I wanted to give the local gun shop a try. This shop normally stocked stuff like this, but did not have one currently. They indicated they could order one for me. (So far so good). I asked "How much?" and "How long?" and they indicated $20 and probably about 2 weeks FROM THE DATE OF THEIR NEXT ORDER - and they were not sure when the next order would go in.

I told them I'd check back in a month or so and see if they had one in stock. That's customer speak for: "Screw that, I'll order it from Amazon for half as much money and have the box on my front porch in 2 days".

The irony here is that if the local gun shop can ALSO order off Amazon, just like I can. All it would take, if they establish a Prime account, is a quick search and a click on the "buy it now with 1 click" radio button. In fact, I just did this in under 30 seconds. The top listing for "HKS 587 speed loader" is $9.99 and the estimated delivery date is tomorrow, given that it's still morning.

Similarly, the LGS could have told me as a Tuesday morning customer that it would be in the shop and ready for pickup probably on Thursday but for sure on Friday. If they took the customer service one step farther, they could take my number they could call me when it arrives to avoid a potential wasted trip if it arrived a day later than estimated.

They would have paid $9.99 just like me, but they still could have marked it up to their normal $20, or knowing they had cash in hand and an already made sale, they could have given me a discount and sold it for $15. They'd have made $5 or $10 for 2 or 3 minutes work, and made themselves the first stop for my shooting accessories.

But they didn't.

They are still stuck in a pre-internet, send in an order form to your supplier every month or so world. They are not going to thrive in the real world.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

G
Like giving $$ away on my 686 snubnose
Replies
9
Views
912
gr8
G
walkin jack
Childhood memories
2
Replies
40
Views
2K
pmanton
pmanton
J
What Is Happening To Local Gun Shows?
2 3
Replies
67
Views
6K
Greyman50
Greyman50
N
Interesting find at LGS - Model 586-7 6" barrel w/ 7 shot cylinder!
Replies
2
Views
268
Nframe_is_no1
N
M
G F Herold Company Short-Barrel Target Revolvers
Replies
9
Views
2K
6string
6string

Latest posts

Back
Top