Long vs. Short Action

[Retired W4]

So, since this occurred long before the internet, was there much wailing and gnashing of teeth over the change to the short action? Or the incorporation of the sliding safety?

Kevin

The US Navy sure didn't like the old hammer block.

 

[ACORN]

Just to add something to the discussion, my 6" K38 Target has the humpback hammer with the long action ser. # 696391

 

[Hondo44]

I only have one long action, a 1920-22 M&P. One thing I notice is there's a pin visible below the cylinder thin release on the long action and not on the short.

The pin you refer to below the cylinder release thumb piece is actually the hammer pivot stud. Both of your guns have it of course and it's not related to the long/short action. You see it on the long action because it's threaded. It just coincidentally changed to a pressed in stud polished flush about the same time as the action change. You can see the pressed in stud with good light and magnification.

 

[JP@AK]

The pin you refer to below the cylinder release thumb piece is actually the hammer pivot stud.

You see it on the long action because it's threaded. It just coincidentally changed to a pressed in stud polished flush about the same time as the action change.

Correct. Here is some additional detail

The management order to change the hammer pivot stud from a threaded unit to a pressed unit was issued on January 18, 1946. It was not implemented immediately. The earliest unit with the pressed stud that I have found in my research shipped in April, 1946.

The short action on the M&P was initiated in March, 1948. It first appeared on revolver #S990184, which shipped on April 7, 1948. One apparent prototype was assembled on October 21, 1947, according to Hellstrom's notes. It is unknown whether that gun actually shipped.

 

[PeteC]

Correct. Here is some additional detail

The management order to change the hammer pivot stud from a threaded unit to a pressed unit was issued on January 18, 1946. It was not implemented immediately. The earliest unit with the pressed stud that I have found in my research shipped in April, 1946.

The short action on the M&P was initiated in March, 1948. It first appeared on revolver #S990184, which shipped on April 7, 1948. One apparent prototype was assembled on October 21, 1947, according to Hellstrom's notes. It is unknown whether that gun actually shipped.

Does this mean that M&P K-frames, with the S serial number prefix, made between 1946 and 1948, had the long action trigger with no visible pivot stud?

Or am I reading something into this post that isn't there??

 

[StrawHat]

The US Navy sure didn't like the old hammer block.

They lost more sailors to spoiled food than to S&W revolvers being dropped two decks!

Kevin

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Does this mean that M&P K-frames, with the S serial number prefix, made between 1946 and 1948, had the long action trigger with no visible pivot stud?

Or am I reading something into this post that isn't there??

Yes. Here's an example, 1948 .38 M&P:

 

[JP@AK]

Does this mean that M&P K-frames, with the S serial number prefix, made between 1946 and 1948, had the long action trigger with no visible pivot stud?

Pete
The S prefix M&Ps had the threaded hammer stud until c. April, 1946. After that, they had the pressed stud, polished flat on the outside of the frame.

From the first postwar shipment in February, 1946, until c. March/April, 1948, they had the long action. After that, most of them had the High Speed hammer. A few later units still had the long action.

 

[JP@AK]

Take a look at these two.

The 5" unit on top shipped in March, 1946. It has the threaded stud. The 4" revolver on the bottom shipped in April, 1946. It has the pressed stud.

You will also notice that the earlier gun has prewar style Magna stocks (yes, they number to the gun). The later (4") revolver has the first style postwar Magnas.

Both have the long action, of course.

 

[Truckman]

This could make a very useful addition to the list of notable threads......Ben

 

[Hondo44]

Does this mean that M&P K-frames, with the S serial number prefix, made between 1946 and 1948, had the long action trigger with no visible pivot stud?

Or am I reading something into this post that isn't there??

Pete, forget about the hammer stud to differentiate the long and short action. Focus on the hammer: long action has a pre war style hammer as shown above in Guy's and Jack's posts. The short action has the modern looking hammer with spur lower down on back of hammer Miley Gil described above (the High Speed hammer Jack referenced).

Narrow spur on fixed sight guns, semi wide spur on target guns.

 

[Hondo44]

The first short throw hammer shown in strawhat's post #23, photo #2 ended about 1955, replaced by the current hammer, the target version of which is shown in photos #3 & 4.

 

[PeteC]

Pete, forget about the hammer stud to differentiate the long and short action. Focus on the hammer: long action has a pre war style hammer as shown above in Guy's and Jack's posts. The short action has the modern looking hammer with spur lower down on back of hammer Miley Gil described above (the High Speed hammer Jack referenced).

Narrow spur on fixed sight guns, semi wide spur on target guns.

Thanks, got it. I am reasonably certain I can identify the latter, not so much the former, because I have handled so few. Meaning, few guns made before 1950, and fewer still made before WWII. I don't think I am alone in that,

 

[smithra_66]

Hello Folks,

I'm interested to learn more about the older S&W revolvers which I have heard referred to as "long action." In particular, I would like to know how to identify them, in the hope of locating a 22, 38, and a 45 caliber revolver for myself. From reading the "Standard Catalog," it appears that any guns made after 1948, and any guns with an "S" prefix serial number are the newer design "short action" revolvers. The "S" might stand for "short hammer throw," but the references I've seen suggest that it indicates the addition of the hammer-block safety activated by the recoil slide.

Anyway, if anyone would be so kind as to enlighten me, or point me to previous discussions, I would be grateful. Just FYI, I'm not a collector. My intent is to shoot any guns I'm so fortunate as to acquire.

Thanks, Tom

The "S" prefix denotes the new safety mechanism introduced after WW2. It's the floating bar instead of the spring loaded bar in the sideplate.

I have an "S" prefix 38/44 Heavy Duty with the long action, so they definitely exist. MOST of the S prefix guns fall into the short action but some transitional models still have the long action.

 

[PeteC]

Take a look at these two.

The 5" unit on top shipped in March, 1946. It has the threaded stud. The 4" revolver on the bottom shipped in April, 1946. It has the pressed stud.

You will also notice that the earlier gun has prewar style Magna stocks (yes, they number to the gun). The later (4") revolver has the first style postwar Magnas.

Both have the long action, of course.

Thanks! That's a really good example. I believe one similar to your 4" gun is sitting in a friend's safe. I think he considers it to be the end of wartime Victory production, and start of civillian sales. The s/n is in the S98x... range, with a bit more muzzle and cylinder wear. I'll direct his attention to this thread!

 

[JP@AK]

I believe one similar to your 4" gun is sitting in a friend's safe. I think he considers it to be the end of wartime Victory production, and start of civillian sales. The s/n is in the S98x... range

Thanks, Pete

In the S98xxxx serial range, it would have shipped in the February to August, 1948 period. The majority of them in that serial range left the factory from March to July, 1948. Since C1 was produced in March, 1948, the rest of the S prefix guns were either already in the vault awaiting shipment or just had not yet been assembled from available parts.

You can advise him that, at S98xxxx, it really isn't very near to "the end of wartime Victory production." It is a couple years later.

 

[PeteC]

Thanks, Pete

In the S98xxxx serial range, it would have shipped in the February to August, 1948 period. The majority of them in that serial range left the factory from March to July, 1948. Since C1 was produced in March, 1948, the rest of the S prefix guns were either already in the vault awaiting shipment or just had not yet been assembled from available parts.

You can advise him that, at S98xxxx, it really isn't very near to "the end of wartime Victory production." It is a couple years later.

He will be happy to hear that. I think he said it might have been in his family since ~48-49 if I remember correctly, but did not know for certain.

 

[Retired W4]

I'll probably get thrown out of the discussion because the point I'll make came well after the war.

The factory SAO K fames and factory SAO conversions had an even shorter throw, for quicker "lock time" for SAO target matches. I believe you can see the difference when looking at each, side by side.

OK, I'll shut up now.

 

[PeteC]

Some S&W literature stated that the pre-war, 1940 K-22 Masterpiece had a "somewhat shortened action". Page 31, S&W Centennial Catalog from 1952.