Looking at an ar

[superdutyscaler]

Been wanting an AR for quit a while now and I think I've made up my mind...maybe. I'm looking at getting a m&p15 sku: 11512? Looking at all comments please

 

[cyphertext]

I would only recommend this rifle if you like it just the way it comes out of the box and would not want to change out anything on it. Add an optic, sling, and light at most and call it a day.

If you want different hand guards, a different stock, or free float barrel, then do not get this particular rifle. You would be paying for Magpul accessories that you plan to replace.

 

[Kadonny]

Nice rifle with nicer (nicer than the standard M&P stuff) Magpul furniture. As @Cyphertext said, you are paying a premium for the Magpul stuff, so if you want this rifle I'd plan to keep the Magpul items on it.

 

[Flash_80]

Agreed with the above. I bought a Sig M400 enhanced in 2013. Granted, any AR was harder to find then so beggars couldn't be choosers. But.. I replaced the magpul handguards with a Daniel Defense drop in, and the stock and grip both down the line. I sold the handguards on Ebay and the stock and MOE grip locally so not all that bad, but in todays market where you can get whatever you want at any time, I would not buy something with upgraded (if thats what you want to call it) furniture if I planned on changing that out later. The floppy S&W stock and the standard grip/handguards suffice in that matter.

 

[superdutyscaler]

Actually yes I like this look, I want iron sights and I like the carry handle. And since it does come off I can add an optic on the picatinny rail

 

[superdutyscaler]

And from what I seen the barrel is 4140 its Chrome lined and so is a lot of the parts in the receiver so it should hold up and last a lifetime? Plus it has the better 1:7 twist from what I was told

 

[cyphertext]

And from what I seen the barrel is 4140 its Chrome lined and so is a lot of the parts in the receiver so it should hold up and last a lifetime? Plus it has the better 1:7 twist from what I was told

Are you sure you are looking at the 11512?

That is the MOE SL Mid Magpulmodel... no carry handle, barrel is not chrome lined, has 1:8 twist with 5R rifling. You are describing something that is different.

M&P(R)15 MOE SL(R) Mid Magpul(R) Spec Series™ | Smith & Wesson

 

[cyphertext]

I'm guessing that you are really looking at this one...

sku 11511

M&P(R)15 | Smith & Wesson

 

[superdutyscaler]

Oh snap! I'm sorry everyone, sku is 11511

 

[cyphertext]

Interestingly enough, we have another thread where this rifle is being compared to the Sport II, and we were discussing why there is such a price difference between the two.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p15-rifles/511721-s-w-m-p15-milspec-m4-clone-cost-vs-sport-ii.html

 

[Brian in Oregon]

And from what I seen the barrel is 4140 its Chrome lined and so is a lot of the parts in the receiver so it should hold up and last a lifetime? Plus it has the better 1:7 twist from what I was told

It is a myth that a 1:7" twist is "better". It is simply an option.

What ammo are you planning on shooting? Less expensive 55gr FMJ or maybe 62gr M855? Or are you going to be using heavier weight ammo for longer ranges even though it costs more? What's your end use?

In my opinion, a 1:7" twist is "better" under these conditions:

You want a gun that will shoot any ammo you can find, even if it does not shoot lighter weights as optimally as a slower twist. This is also the thinking of the military.

You want to shoot very long range and have a longer barreled (20" to 24") match grade rifle that can utilize heavy bullets, and you are probably handloading to get the maximum accuracy from it.

 

[superdutyscaler]

Just read all the responses and I'm more confused now. The 11511 is slightly better in durability because of all the chrome that's added?
It's milspec in trigger guard but some save it's weaker design?
Both guns have none milspec 4140 barrel (milspec is 5150?)

 

[superdutyscaler]

For the next 6-7 years I'm stuck in new jersey until I move out west (Wyoming or similar state) so I'll be using the gun just to plink and have some fun. When I move out of this horrible state it will most likely be used for the same aspect FUN. I have plenty of rifles for hunting purposes to put meat on the table

 

[Brian in Oregon]

Just read all the responses and I'm more confused now. The 11511 is slightly better in durability because of all the chrome that's added?
It's milspec in trigger guard but some save it's weaker design?
Both guns have none milspec 4140 barrel (milspec is 5150?)

Milspec is 4150, but part of that specification is also magnetic particle testing, etc. There's more to the spec than just the material.

Chrome plating helps protect the bore from corrosion and erosion. It provides a hard surface for the bullet to pass over and protects the steel from that wear, extending barrel life. The drawback is any imperfections in the barrel's bore will not be smoothed out from firing, and are simply coated with chrome. As a generality your best accuracy barrels are not chrome lined. (I want to emphasize "generality". There have definitely been exceptions.)

Melonite treatment, which S&W calls Armornite, is an alternative barrel treatment. Instead of layering on the surface like chrome, it goes into the metal surface. Supposedly this does not have the drawbacks of coating imperfections, but I have not heard of a study saying those imperfections tend to smooth out in a reasonable round count either. Claims have been made it is superior to chrome and barrels last longer. I prefer it to chrome because the as-cut barrel dimensions are kept, not changed by coating.

Is a chrome or Melonite treated 4140 barrel as good as a 4150 barrel? Technically, no. But the longevity of both barrels is increased to the point where it is not likely the average owner is going to wear either out unless they have a big ammo budget or are shooting so fast and often that the barrel becomes an honorary branding iron.

For maximum accuracy I prefer an untreated barrel made from premium steel, but that AR has a low round count as it is reserved for hunting.

As for the trigger guard, the swing down milspec design is generally thought to be weaker than an integral guard because it is possible for a blow to that area to break an ear off. Now, you have to ask yourself this.... Have you ever personally known anyone who broke an ear off? I've never even seen a pic on the internet of a broken ear. I think that argument is a moot point. So for "authenticity" of a "milspec" gun you want the ears. But that means you want the rest of the gun to be milspec too, so watch for barrel material, magnetic particle checking, etc. The reason I like the integral guard is I don't have to buy an aftermarket guard for winter gloves and fit it. Funny how an integral guard used to be a selling point on high end ARs and now it is offered on some budget guns.

 

[superdutyscaler]

Smith & Wesson M&P15 Standard 811000

So what's this gun?

 

[superdutyscaler]

Like I said I'm gonna plink her in new jersey and when I move in will shoot a lot more but mainly plinking. I'm sure I'll use it to take a deer or coyote WOULD love to go hog hunting one day so there's my buying points. I like iron sights and the look of the two guns I mentioned, yes I have the money for he 1000 dollar are but I need to know is it worth it? II want an AR figured s&w is good because I own a lot of their pistols. Was looking at colt but they don't offer a carry handle like the Smith I'm open to other manufacturers BUT I want a good gun that's gonna last

 

[Brian in Oregon]

Like I said I'm gonna plink her in new jersey and when I move in will shoot a lot more but mainly plinking. I'm sure I'll use it to take a deer or coyote WOULD love to go hog hunting one day so there's my buying points. I like iron sights and the look of the two guns I mentioned, yes I have the money for he 1000 dollar are but I need to know is it worth it? II want an AR figured s&w is good because I own a lot of their pistols. Was looking at colt but they don't offer a carry handle like the Smith I'm open to other manufacturers BUT I want a good gun that's gonna last

Detachable carry handles are readily available, ranging from cheap UTG's to higher end.

I don't see why a Sport II would not fulfill your needs, and its twist is more suitable for 55 grain cheap plinking ammo.

M&P(R)15 Sport™ II | Smith & Wesson

For that matter, detachable front sights are readily available as well, in solid or folding versions. This would allow the option of not having a sight in the way of a scope or using folding sights fore and aft.

M&P(R)15 SPORT™ II Optics Ready | Smith & Wesson

I bought a Sport II. Did not have an AR set up for low light conditions using lighter bullets in my collection. The Sport II met my needs. Here it is tarted up with Magpul furniture from the spare parts bin, and an EOTech sight.

 

[Westie1]

One suggestion before you get to gung ** about which one you want. Make very sure what you want is legal to buy.You have some particular laws in Jersey that may make the model you're looking at illegal. Your best bet is to see what is available in store locally, and then go from there.

 

[Cigar]

Been wanting an AR for quit a while now and I think I've made up my mind...maybe. I'm looking at getting a m&p15 sku: 11512? Looking at all comments please

Check this guy out ... Tons of info..
Chris Bartocci
- YouTube

 

[cyphertext]

Smith & Wesson M&P15 Standard 811000

So what's this gun?

Similar to what you are looking at, but has a 1:9 twist rate.

 

[cyphertext]

As for the trigger guard, the swing down milspec design is generally thought to be weaker than an integral guard because it is possible for a blow to that area to break an ear off. Now, you have to ask yourself this.... Have you ever personally known anyone who broke an ear off? I've never even seen a pic on the internet of a broken ear. I think that argument is a moot point.

Yes, I have seen people who have broken the ear off. Most of the time it happens when someone is building a rifle and does not take care to support the ears when installing the trigger guard. If they break the rear ear, they will usually buy a grip like the Stark Rifle Grip that has a trigger guard built in and covers up the rear ears.

 

[cyphertext]

I'm sure I'll use it to take a deer or coyote WOULD love to go hog hunting one day so there's my buying points.

You have contradicting statements... you say you have other guns for hunting, but then you say you would use it for hunting...

If you are going to use it for hunting and will be using the solid copper bullets like Barnes TSX, I would go with the faster twist. The 1:9 will work for the 55 gr and 62 gr, but the 70 gr need a 1:8 twist. These projectiles are longer than a comparable weight lead projectile, as these are all copper. The longer projectile requires the faster twist rate.

 

[sgtsandman]

And from what I seen the barrel is 4140 its Chrome lined and so is a lot of the parts in the receiver so it should hold up and last a lifetime? Plus it has the better 1:7 twist from what I was told

That is only true if you plan to shoot heavier grain bullets because of their longer length. The "sweet spot" twist is believed to be 1:8 but for the average shooter, 1:9 will work just fine and they wouldn't notice a difference between the two.

Match the barrel to what you want to do. A 1:7 will eliminate most light grain bullets either because they will disintegrate in flight or won't stabilize properly. Conversely, the 1:9 can't handle most heavy bullets because it can't stabilize them well enough for accurate groups. A varmint hunter might want the 1:9 because of the light bullets. A precision target shooter will want the 1:7, especially if they shoot long range. They need the heavy bullets to keep the velocity up as long as possible for those long shots.

 

[Flash_80]

Match the barrel to what you want to do. A 1:7 will eliminate most light grain bullets either because they will disintegrate in flight or won't stabilize properly.

From one barrel to the next could always be different, but this is 100yds from a Sig M400 with a 1:7 twist using 50gr American Eagle .223 hollow points. Never tried a 40gr or anything that lighweight before though.

 

[sgtsandman]

From one barrel to the next could always be different, but this is 100yds from a Sig M400 with a 1:7 twist using 50gr American Eagle .223 hollow points. Never tried a 40gr or anything that lighweight before though.

Very true and nice group! Typically speaking (because every barrel is different) 50 grain would be your (and mine) bottom end. Some barrels might be able to go lower and some won't be able to go that low.

As a result, it's difficult to get into specifics and have to go with the "general rule"

What works great in one rifle might not in another of the same exact make and model.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Brian in Oregon]

The issue is not what happens at 100 yards with light bullets in a 1:7" twist. Often they will turn in very decent close range groups, sometimes the groups will be more open that heavier bullets.

The problem happens at ranges where the bullet has passed its midpoint trajectory and is descending.

The bullet is overstabilized by the excessive twist rate. Instead of descending with the nose following the flight path, the nose remains up. At very long range the bullet can hit with the side of its nose or body, instead of the tip of its nose. In addition, the bullet has a tendency to yaw to the side. The drawing above is a bit exaggerated, but it illustrates the point.

Does this mean you should avoid 55 grainers in a 1:7" twist? Nope. As long as the rpm's don't blow them up, shoot them. But just realize the twist rate is not ideal for them. Myself, I shoot almost exclusively 55 grainers for general purpose and hunting. So it makes sense for me to go with an optimal twist for those bullets. I'm not going to be bothering with long range shots with an AR15. I have other rifles in other calibers for that.

 

[C J]

A precision target shooter will want the 1:7, especially if they shoot long range. They need the heavy bullets to keep the velocity up as long as possible for those long shots.

I really don't want to open up the twist rate discussion again but I would like to point out that my Savage 12 LRPV (Long Range Precision Varmint) rifle has a 1:9 twist and it does extremely well at 500 yards with 75 gr. bullets. That is the best weight for the rifle in fact.

I've shot lots of groups under 5" at 500 yards with that rifle. I shot one group that was 1" at that distance. Strangely enough that was with 52 gr. ammo. It just happened to be a really nice run of ammo. Yes I used off the shelf ammo. Black Hills ammo to be exact.

I really don't have a lot of targets to show because the range where I did my shooting had a dip between the benches and the target area which meant you could be caught in that zone when someone else showed up and started shooting. So I had to be content with shooting pieces of clay pigeons and targets painted on rocks. But with the right spotting scope it isn't hard to tell where you're hitting at that range. One target I do have a photo of, was painted on a rock. Actually I have a hole where the target had been. I knocked off every piece of that target including small pieces below 1" in size with maybe 15 rounds to do it. It was about a 5" target. Anyway here's the rifle and what's left of the target I mentioned.

I circled the area I chipped out and another painted spot which is what the spot looked like that I shot. I only shot one of the targets. But you can see that I got every bit of paint and that included a last bit that was left on a piece of rock no bigger than an inch.

Sorry about the long post. I rarely talk about this target online but it does show that a 1:9 twist rifle can shoot well at longer distances with heavy bullets (75gr).

I'm including a photo of the rifle also. One more thing. Notice there are no bullet holes around the hole where the target was. This LRPV will put every round in a group that size including the 15 or so it took me to knock out the small pieces of this "target".

 

[cyphertext]

I really don't want to open up the twist rate discussion again but I would like to point out that my Savage 12 LRPV (Long Range Precision Varmint) rifle has a 1:9 twist and it does extremely well at 500 yards with 75 gr. bullets. That is the best weight for the rifle in fact.

I've shot lots of groups under 5" at 500 yards with that rifle. I shot one group that was 1" at that distance. Strangely enough that was with 52 gr. ammo. It just happened to be a really nice run of ammo. Yes I used off the shelf ammo. Black Hills ammo to be exact.

I really don't have a lot of targets to show because the range where I did my shooting had a dip between the benches and the target area which meant you could be caught in that zone when someone else showed up and started shooting. So I had to be content with shooting pieces of clay pigeons and targets painted on rocks. But with the right spotting scope it isn't hard to tell where you're hitting at that range. One target I do have a photo of, was painted on a rock. Actually I have a hole where the target had been. I knocked off every piece of that target including small pieces below 1" in size with maybe 15 rounds to do it. It was about a 5" target. Anyway here's the rifle and what's left of the target I mentioned.

I circled the area I chipped out and another painted spot which is what the spot looked like that I shot. I only shot one of the targets. But you can see that I got every bit of paint and that included a last bit that was left on a piece of rock no bigger than an inch.

Sorry about the long post. I rarely talk about this target online but it does show that a 1:9 twist rifle can shoot well at longer distances with heavy bullets (75gr).

I'm including a photo of the rifle also. One more thing. Notice there are no bullet holes around the hole where the target was. This LRPV will put every round in a group that size including the 15 or so it took me to knock out the small pieces of this "target".

CJ, I don't think we can realistically compare a bolt gun specifically built for long range shooting to an AR. Again, yes, your rifle, the single example, may stabilize the 75 gr, but the likelihood of a 16" AR barrel with a 1:9 twist not being able to stabilize a 75 gr is is much higher than getting one that will. If you are going to shoot longer projectiles in an AR, you are better off with a faster twist, plain and simple.

I think Savage agrees as well, since they also offer the same rifle in a 1:7 twist.

 

[Pro2nd]

The only thing I can possibly suggest here is..

take your time deciding.. Read tons, ask questions galore etc..

The elections are over, and I don't for'see another "Scare" any time real soon..

 

[sgtsandman]

I agree with cyphertext. A bolt rifle with a heavy barrel is a very different animal than an AR with the same twist. That being said, every firearm is different and doesn't always follow the general rules that they are supposed to. Some will shoot more and better than they are supposed to be able to and others will be less.