Low capacity but probably enough

Exactly when do you plan to shoot out to 25 yards with a pistol in any self defense situation?

Funny, I just got back from the story as Kitchen 6 wanted Ice Cream. As we rounded the corner and started down the isle, I paced off 25 yds. We were only 3/4 of the way down the isle. I turned around and looked at the beginning of the isle. I then pictured someone else rounding the corner, with a weapon, hell bent on doing someone harm, it did not seem that far.

You live in your 3 yd world where you know with great certainty that nothing bad will happen past that distance. I don't just carry a pistol in my pocket as a magic Talisman. I actually spent the time to perfect my skill and maintain it. I take ownership for my and my wife's safety.

And I'm ruling nothing else.
 
^^^^^^^^Agreed, I do most of my shooting at 20 yds. When I’m done I put a mag through my 365 at 50 yds on my 20x24 steel silhouette targets. I usually go 10 for 10 at 50. But sometimes I’ll miss one. This makes shooting at 5,7,or 10 yds seem incredibly easy. No different than shooting my bow at 50 yds. I’ll never shoot at a deer at 50yds but 30 feels like a lay up.
 
This debate reminds me of something I heard decades ago, from comedian George Carlin, IIRC.
"You ever notice that anyone that drives slower than you is an "idiot", but anyone driving faster is a "maniac""?"
Seems like everyone, myself included, tends to think of their EDC choice as being ideal, with everyone else being over or under-gunned. :)
 
I agree, I am at the range weekly. I carry a Glock 19 with no extra mags for "Self Defense". The OP was discussing self defense, not a gun fight. I put myself in a stupid position one evening. Yes, I am man enough to admit that! LOL I neglected to fill my vehicle until it was on vapors. Had to stop at a Wawa at 2am. As I was pumping, a group of thugs were hanging around the entrance. Three of them decided to walk towards me. As I was pumping, I simply lifted my shirt to show I was carrying and they turned away as I heard their friends teasing them for going after a LEO. No I am not a LEO, nor do/did I pretend to be. Did I correct them? Heck no! Before I get blasted ... Yes, I know it could have gone to hell in a NY second. Am I prepared for a gun fight? Yes, I keep 4 extra mags in my console, plus I keep a M&P FPC behind the front passenger seat. Just like I got my wife a Glock 44. Looks like a Glock 19 but in 22LR. Yes, I know 22LR is not a large round. But, if a thug is coming at her. Do you think he is going to ask "Hmmmm is that a 22 or 9?" Let's face it, carrying is 75% a deterrent.

I’m not sure how the red prepares you for the blue, especially considering the speed with which a very innocuous appearing situation can turn south.
 
I'm reminded of a story I read years ago about a guy who got mugged taking out the garbage. His friends said, "Schmuck!! You're a Gun Guy! Why weren't you carrying??" His response was that he was just taking out the garbage...he didn't think he'd need a gun.
The moral of this story was that you carry a pistol, all the time, even if you don't think you'll need it. Because if you DID think you'd be needing a gun, you'd have two or three pistols on you, plus a rifle or shotgun, plus all your friends with their guns at your back!
He told it funnier than I do. But the lesson was well taken.
 
NO!!! NEVER!!! No more gun bans ever.

You are part of the problem.
That’s 100% the problem, right there. You seem to think that putting FRTs and Glock switches in as many hands as possible will win us more friends. You’re horribly wrong and that viewpoint will destroy the 2A when one of those is inevitably misused.

I agree with you, conceptually. Gun control sucks. But it ain’t our two opinions that matter. Like it or not, we live in a society with hundreds of millions of other people, who all get opinions and votes too, and as much as we might wish it otherwise, no freedom is absolute or unlimited. Society has rules, and those rules are primarily generated as responses to negative events and trauma. Society made rules saying we can’t look at or possess certain things, made rules saying that we can’t say or do certain things in certain contexts, etc. I can’t go fly an airplane next to a major airport without licensure. I can’t drive wherever I want. I can’t take your stuff or your money. I can’t randomly fire bullets into buildings to see if they’re occupied, etc. That’s the social contract, and like it or not, it’s real.

I don’t want a gun ban, but we as a 2A community need to be respectful and realistic and rational when dealing with our fellow citizens. Things that turn common, safe and legal handguns and rifles into hair-trigger de facto machine guns aren’t making our weapons safer to use, more accurate or more reliable. These devices are designed to defeat internal safeties and facilitate firing as many rounds as possible in as short a time as possible. How is that responsible use of a firearm? What happens when some idiot uses an FRT in a “defensive” shooting, putting out 15-30 rounds in a burst, and hits unintentional targets? Would you want your neighbor in an apartment or next door home-defending against a bump in the night with something dumping dozens of rounds at the press of a trigger?

I think a lot of you 2A absolutists need to look at how we got to gun control and how we dug ourselves out of it. Y’all are nostalgic for the days when boys took rifles to school and hunted…well, do you know why that ended? Because the collected exceptional events of misuse (brandishing, fights, drinking, the occasional school and/or school-adjacent shooting, threats, etc) piled up to the point it couldn’t be ignored, and eventually, heinous acts compelled people to change the law to remove local discretion and “loopholes” and the like. And yeah, it was bad for all involved. But it happened because irresponsible gun owners and users pushed the limits of public tolerance past the breaking point. And they overreacted, and we as a 2A community suffered for it and it took more tragedies to push us back towards a sane center. We have made a lot of gains in the past 20 years in terms of securing our right to carry firearms in public, to carry without unconstitutional permits, and even to compel anti-gun states to cease persecuting people who want to carry firearms (imperfect, but a work in progress). We’ve actually got society agreeing mostly with our message. Let’s not blow that momentum and goodwill to mag-dump obnoxiously.

Six years ago, a psychopath used semiautomatic rifles fitted with bump stocks to kill 59 people and injure hundreds more at a concert. Similar devices to accelerate functional firing rates have been used in other mass shootings. Those were pale imitations of machine guns to our little community in retrospect, but could anyone really tell the difference at the time? And some of yall want to make those more accessible? What is wrong with you? How do I convince my high-school girl next door neighbor/crush, who was at that concert and saw her friend get shot, with a vote identical to my own, to support the RTKBA to an unlimited degree that puts FRTs and machine gun analogues out right next to her 9mm CCW? My brothers in Christ, she already fervently believes ARs should be banned- “i don’t think there’s a good reason to have that many bullets” was what she said about the issue. What makes our opinions and votes more important or valid than hers? For that matter, do we really want to be in a firearms community where people normalize firing **bursts**? What happened to basic firearms awareness and safety?

It is really hard to find a defensible shooting situation for a functional FA firearm that is not hard-linked to a range or other very, very limited and controlled context. These are not conducive to those circumstances and should be banned on a federal level.
 
Two of my co-workers at the agency I work for recently attended Glock Armorer School. They shared a story the instructor shared. Glock puts on an annual international conference for Glock armorers. The attendees are always asked by Glock what they can do to make their pistols better. The U.S. attendees and only the U.S. attendees always say the same thing - higher capacity.

Capacity is like that magic blanket kids cover their head with when they go to bed to protect them from the monster who lives in the closet.

Reloads with autoloaders during a self defense situation are usually because of a malfunction. Carrying three 20 round p-mags on your belt with a 20 round p-mag hanging out the bottom of your plastic gun is a bit much. I ask the uniformed guys, "Are you going to war?"

My thought process is - 1) Choose a caliber that will get the job done in 3 rounds or less, 2) choose a weapon that won't malfunction, 3) find a weapon you can consistently hit a target with while under stress.
 
That’s 100% the problem, right there. You seem to think that putting FRTs and Glock switches in as many hands as possible will win us more friends. You’re horribly wrong and that viewpoint will destroy the 2A when one of those is inevitably misused.

I agree with you, conceptually. Gun control sucks. But it ain’t our two opinions that matter. Like it or not, we live in a society with hundreds of millions of other people, who all get opinions and votes too, and as much as we might wish it otherwise, no freedom is absolute or unlimited. Society has rules, and those rules are primarily generated as responses to negative events and trauma. Society made rules saying we can’t look at or possess certain things, made rules saying that we can’t say or do certain things in certain contexts, etc. I can’t go fly an airplane next to a major airport without licensure. I can’t drive wherever I want. I can’t take your stuff or your money. I can’t randomly fire bullets into buildings to see if they’re occupied, etc. That’s the social contract, and like it or not, it’s real.

I don’t want a gun ban, but we as a 2A community need to be respectful and realistic and rational when dealing with our fellow citizens. Things that turn common, safe and legal handguns and rifles into hair-trigger de facto machine guns aren’t making our weapons safer to use, more accurate or more reliable. These devices are designed to defeat internal safeties and facilitate firing as many rounds as possible in as short a time as possible. How is that responsible use of a firearm? What happens when some idiot uses an FRT in a “defensive” shooting, putting out 15-30 rounds in a burst, and hits unintentional targets? Would you want your neighbor in an apartment or next door home-defending against a bump in the night with something dumping dozens of rounds at the press of a trigger?

I think a lot of you 2A absolutists need to look at how we got to gun control and how we dug ourselves out of it. Y’all are nostalgic for the days when boys took rifles to school and hunted…well, do you know why that ended? Because the collected exceptional events of misuse (brandishing, fights, drinking, the occasional school and/or school-adjacent shooting, threats, etc) piled up to the point it couldn’t be ignored, and eventually, heinous acts compelled people to change the law to remove local discretion and “loopholes” and the like. And yeah, it was bad for all involved. But it happened because irresponsible gun owners and users pushed the limits of public tolerance past the breaking point. And they overreacted, and we as a 2A community suffered for it and it took more tragedies to push us back towards a sane center. We have made a lot of gains in the past 20 years in terms of securing our right to carry firearms in public, to carry without unconstitutional permits, and even to compel anti-gun states to cease persecuting people who want to carry firearms (imperfect, but a work in progress). We’ve actually got society agreeing mostly with our message. Let’s not blow that momentum and goodwill to mag-dump obnoxiously.

Six years ago, a psychopath used semiautomatic rifles fitted with bump stocks to kill 59 people and injure hundreds more at a concert. Similar devices to accelerate functional firing rates have been used in other mass shootings. Those were pale imitations of machine guns to our little community in retrospect, but could anyone really tell the difference at the time? And some of yall want to make those more accessible? What is wrong with you? How do I convince my high-school girl next door neighbor/crush, who was at that concert and saw her friend get shot, with a vote identical to my own, to support the RTKBA to an unlimited degree that puts FRTs and machine gun analogues out right next to her 9mm CCW? My brothers in Christ, she already fervently believes ARs should be banned- “i don’t think there’s a good reason to have that many bullets” was what she said about the issue. What makes our opinions and votes more important or valid than hers? For that matter, do we really want to be in a firearms community where people normalize firing **bursts**? What happened to basic firearms awareness and safety?

It is really hard to find a defensible shooting situation for a functional FA firearm that is not hard-linked to a range or other very, very limited and controlled context. These are not conducive to those circumstances and should be banned on a federal level.

Shall not be infringed.....

the 2nd Amendment is not an opinion, its a right...period. Focusing on the firearm instead of the crime/criminal is what got us here. How many times is a weapon charge plea bargained down in court? There are literally thousands of gun laws on the books and what does it do?

I laughed when the came up with adding a hate crime to a murder charge, like the killing of a person was not bad enough, they felt the need to add an additional charge. That's like a dare, vs. a double dog dare.....:ROFLMAO:

Put violent criminal in jail and don't let them out, seems like a pretty simple approach.

Love or hate the Arab culture, but they seem to have crime reduction down pretty good. Steal, lose a hand, kill, lose a head.


More gun laws have never been the answer.
 
Exactly when do you plan to shoot out to 25 yards with a pistol in any self defense situation?
I was a Federal Firearms Instructor for 18 years and now I qualify yearly for LEOSA carry. Every single Law Enforcement Qualification includes shooting at 25 yards to qualify. That's both State and Federal Courses of fire.
 
That’s 100% the problem, right there. You seem to think that putting FRTs and Glock switches in as many hands as possible will win us more friends. You’re horribly wrong and that viewpoint will destroy the 2A when one of those is inevitably misused.
Actually, your viewpoint is 100% wrong.

The items you mentioned have already been used many times by criminals. At least in the case of the Glock switches. The criminals have them, not the law-abiding people.

The 2A is about allowing people the freedom to protect themselves as they see fit. Back in the day private citizens had better weaponry than the government did. Just as the founders did against the British. It was a non-issue then, and it's realistically a non-issue today.

Feelings are irrelevant. It's your viewpoint that takes feelings into consideration that has helped make this nation a dump.
 
Actually, your viewpoint is 100% wrong.

The items you mentioned have already been used many times by criminals. At least in the case of the Glock switches. The criminals have them, not the law-abiding people.

The 2A is about allowing people the freedom to protect themselves as they see fit. Back in the day private citizens had better weaponry than the government did. Just as the founders did against the British. It was a non-issue then, and it's realistically a non-issue today.

Feelings are irrelevant. It's your viewpoint that takes feelings into consideration that has helped make this nation a dump.
So I can use a flamethrower or a grenade to protect myself on the bus?

Maybe a .50 caliber HMG in case I “feel threatened” on the road?

Perhaps a pack howitzer oriented on the front gate?

MAXIMUM FREEEDOOOMMM!!
 
So I can use a flamethrower or a grenade to protect myself on the bus?

Maybe a .50 caliber HMG in case I “feel threatened” on the road?

Perhaps a pack howitzer oriented on the front gate?

MAXIMUM FREEEDOOOMMM!!

What a dumb straw man argument. The 2A was included in order to ensure the common people the means to resist government tyranny. To that point, a government that refuses to combat crime and lets violent offenders out after short incarcerations is...get ready for it...tyrannical. But it doesn't mean you can launch grenades in a crowded bus or any of the other statements you made. A free state is only as orderly and well-behaved as the people within.

“The only foundation of a free Constitution is pure virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our people in a greater measure than they have it now, they may change their rulers and the forms of government, but they will not obtain a lasting liberty. They will only exchange tyrants and tyrannies.” - John Adams
 
What a dumb straw man argument. The 2A was included in order to ensure the common people the means to resist government tyranny. To that point, a government that refuses to combat crime and lets violent offenders out after short incarcerations is...get ready for it...tyrannical. But it doesn't mean you can launch grenades in a crowded bus or any of the other statements you made. A free state is only as orderly and well-behaved as the people within.

“The only foundation of a free Constitution is pure virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our people in a greater measure than they have it now, they may change their rulers and the forms of government, but they will not obtain a lasting liberty. They will only exchange tyrants and tyrannies.” - John Adams
I’m just pointing out that the capacity and “firepower” arguments are inherently undermined by people who apply absolutist principles to nuanced topics.

There are gun owners out there who would gleefully carry an AR pistol with an FRT, mag-dumping 5.56 into a “threat”, and call it legal and smart and worthy of emulation under their 2A rights.

Those are the people that get guns banned.
 
All valid and debatable subject matter.
in the end it is what you shoot best, carry well and have confidence in.

Be it autos with + 8 capacity or J Frame size 5 shot
or even a 34" walking stick.
 

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