Low capacity but probably enough

[SFury79]

I ain't saying we need or should have gun control in excess of what we already have. I am saying that how we are perceived, both IRL and increasingly online, is really important because we cannot have unlimited freedom without expecting consequences from the rest of society.

You are asking for tyranny. Either we accept the risks that come with freedom, or we become slaves to those who desire power.

No restrictions are good. They are all bad and were rejected by the founders who were mostly Christian men following the teachings of Christ. Even the atheist, and wise (albeit lecherous) man, Ben Franklin rejected any restrictions.

Fear makes you desire to be a slave. I reject such nonsense.

 

[Borderboss]

That's even more damning in the eyes of John Q. Public. Thousands of rounds fired into a crowd from a guy rocking kit he bought at freely-accessible, local, non-specialty gun stores. Utterly terrifying, if one looks at it from the POV of a non-2A activist.

I ain't saying we need or should have gun control in excess of what we already have. I am saying that how we are perceived, both IRL and increasingly online, is really important because we cannot have unlimited freedom without expecting consequences from the rest of society.

You should sell your guns and take up golf or knitting. You clearly don't understand this freedom thing. The more you type, the worse it gets. You don't need guns. Just dial 911.

 

[Rocketmedic40]

You are asking for tyranny. Either we accept the risks that come with freedom, or we become slaves to those who desire power.

No restrictions are good. They are all bad and were rejected by the founders who were mostly Christian men following the teachings of Christ. Even the atheist, and wise (albeit lecherous) man, Ben Franklin rejected any restrictions.

Fear makes you desire to be a slave. I reject such nonsense.

As opposed to the tyranny of one madman with no accountability, an arsenal of anything and a motivation to slaughter? That's just as bad, when you can't participate in society for fear of a gunman executing people by the concertful for their own amusement.

 

[Smoke]

I'm really beginning to think we have a concern troll here

 

[walkin' trails]

I've got no use for FRTs or Glock switches. That issue is currently or has been discussed at the courts. I prefer a good two stage trigger in an accurate rifle. With that said, I'm not a proponent of banning anything 2A.

I'd never heard or seen any evidence linking school children taking rifles and shotguns to school during hunting season to active school shooter tragedies. Seems like the active shooter incidents came after the gun-free schools act became law in 1986.

Can't call an idiot who gets dissed and opens up on a crowd with a converted Glock a 2A advocate.

Magazine capacity bans never thwarted any criminal act. Malfunctions related to drum magazines, which seem to be common, seem to have caused problem children later coddled by the courts and media to stop and not cause further mayhem. In many of those situations, someone with even a 5-shot who knew how to use it might have gotten their attention and stopped the mayhem even sooner.

Criminal statistics related to gun and magazine bans are only lower when manipulated.

Want to put firearms in the hands of violent criminals? Then let criminals off with slaps on the wrist, reduce sentences, release OR; anything to put more criminals back on the street who are likely to arm themselves.

Anytime things like binary triggers, bump stocks, drum mags, etc get banned or is threatened, everyone who also missed out on firearms and safety education wants one. But the mainstream shines such negative light on education and training programs that same people don't always seek out what they need.

I believe far fewer people have been massacred by pack mules than by trucks. Do we need to ban vehicles along with bump stocks? We will still have deranged people among us even if we don't have guns. Always have.

The "slippery slope" is what we're on right now - have been on for years, and too many people are being slow boiled and don't realize it.

 

[scattershot]

What the hell does that even mean?

The remains of someone killed by a bear.

 

[VaTom]

Sounds like time for a wrap on this thread.

 

[BarryinIN]

I'm just going to throw this out there with three comments:

- This is a data compilation of 1180 LEO involved shoots, which of course includes all the things LEOs do going into places armed citizens with any sense or situational awareness avoid. (It's a safe bet the engagements that require more than a single magazine are calls where LEOs called for backup first).

- Percentage wise, calculated based on the second chart on page three, 6 rounds covers 75 percent of the total LEO involved shoots, 11 rounds (10 +1) covers 90 percent and 16 rounds (15 + 1) covers 97 percent. In other words, an armed citizen really has to be situationally clueless and or just plain looking for trouble (which is the point a not so armed citizen friendly prosecutor is likely to make when you are found to have had two spare high capacity mags on you, plus the one in the pistol) to find a situation where 16 rounds wont be enough.

- A spare mag makes sense as a means to quickly clear a couple uncommonly encountered types of malfunctions. A single spare is far more defensible from that perspective as it side steps the "just in case I needed more ammo" problem of "what were you doing there after dark?" issue. However, if you encounter one of those malfunctions in the the real world you chose your handgun poorly, and or did not adequately range test your pistol and carry ammo in advance (usually 200 rounds straight with no failures for a semi auto pistol).

In short, there are much better ways for an armed citizen to cover realistic real world contingencies than carrying three 15 or 17 round magazines.

https://www.policinginstitute.org/w...9/05/1.-OIS_incident_exec_summary_8.28.19.pdf

Officer Involved Shooting stats are almost useless for everyday people.

The thing about using OIS stats for regular people is their situations aren't the same at all, and that could skew things in any direction.

An LEO is usually called to a known situation. A citizen is responding to the surprise event as it happens. That alone can cause many differences.
Some others-

Engagement distance: The citizen is likely to be at contact distance, where the LEO responds from some stand-off distance.

Numbers: If responding to a call, LE will possibly have multiple officers while the citizen is almost certainly alone. If four officers respond and fire a total of 16 rounds, it took 16 rounds to end the situation. But it ends up in the figures as an average of four shots.
A citizen might require the same 16 rounds to stop an attack. Same result that looks very different.

Guns used: LE will have a service-size gun in at least 9mm. A regular citizen could have anything. Can we expect the same results and numbers from John Q. Citizen's .32 auto that fits in the palm of his hand that we get from Officer Friendly's Glock 22 in .40 S&W with a red dot and mounted light?

Mindset of the participant: Officer responds to a dispute at a house he's been to three times today already when the shooting occurs. It's the end of his shift, and he's had enough of all of them.
The citizens' situation will be more like responding to a knife suddenly jammed in his side or three guys trying to snatch his teenage daughter.
Who is going to fight harder, the officer in his situation or the citizen examples?

This is what I thought of simply off the top of my head. The OIS stats might have little to no bearing on most of us. Any attorney who can't make that point is useless.

 

[Rustyt1953]

I'm really beginning to think we have a concern troll here

My advice...

 

[Scswolf]

I live in a low crime area in the coastal Pac Northwest.
70% of the time I'm fine with my 642-1 in a pocket holster, or a Don Hume JIT slide concealed OWB, with two speed loaders.

25% of the time it's a GP100 (model 1715) concealed OWB with a couple speed loaders…..typically when the annoying, not afraid of humans black bears are active at my work……with the occasional big cat, and the handful of tweakers who migrate here in summer. (Most of them are "harmless"……..but a growing number are becoming an issue as far as potentially being not so harmless.)

Every now and again I have to go to Portland with my wife……….I carry both on those occasions.

 

[Shibadog]

I've got no use for FRTs or Glock switches. That issue is currently or has been discussed at the courts. I prefer a good two stage trigger in an accurate rifle. With that said, I'm not a proponent of banning anything 2A.

I'd never heard or seen any evidence linking school children taking rifles and shotguns to school during hunting season to active school shooter tragedies. Seems like the active shooter incidents came after the gun-free schools act became law in 1986.

Can't call an idiot who gets dissed and opens up on a crowd with a converted Glock a 2A advocate.

Magazine capacity bans never thwarted any criminal act. Malfunctions related to drum magazines, which seem to be common, seem to have caused problem children later coddled by the courts and media to stop and not cause further mayhem. In many of those situations, someone with even a 5-shot who knew how to use it might have gotten their attention and stopped the mayhem even sooner.

Criminal statistics related to gun and magazine bans are only lower when manipulated.

Want to put firearms in the hands of violent criminals? Then let criminals off with slaps on the wrist, reduce sentences, release OR; anything to put more criminals back on the street who are likely to arm themselves.

Anytime things like binary triggers, bump stocks, drum mags, etc get banned or is threatened, everyone who also missed out on firearms and safety education wants one. But the mainstream shines such negative light on education and training programs that same people don't always seek out what they need.

I believe far fewer people have been massacred by pack mules than by trucks. Do we need to ban vehicles along with bump stocks? We will still have deranged people among us even if we don't have guns. Always have.

The "slippery slope" is what we're on right now - have been on for years, and too many people are being slow boiled and don't realize it.

Fully agree, with one dditional comment. Perception IS reality. That's why an AR is "scary" or "evil" while a wood stocked Mini 14 ( which will do the exact Same thing) isn't. Black plastic guns are a lot more dangerous than steel and wood-Just ask anyone who is ignorant about firearms (Not necessarily someone who is on the loony left, just someone who doesn't know the difference.). I taught a lady to shoot last year who was wanting to learn to shoot for protection after her husband had died. She was scared of my AR, while ignoring the Mini 14 and the Garand sitting beside it in the rack. She eventually shot the Mini and later the AR. She'd seen the media and the "news" and actually thought AR's were machine guns. For decades now every action movie shows full auto AR's and the masses do NOT know the difference. Heck, some of our elected officials from donkey Kong have even referenced "fully semi automatic" rifles, clearly showing the haven't a clue about reality

 

[Moose074]

Wow 9 pages of decent content. when I leave town mostly overnight I carry my Kimber except to hunting property then I carry my Rock Island and either a 308 or 243
When I turned 21 I lived and worked on Air Base not able to carry
Then I took a job in corrections while going to college guns big no no at both. Now I'm a teacher/ coach again no gun allowed for me. Busy busy schedule 60-90 hours a week easy until summer. So not a lot of range time. Plus NO holster draw at range. I carry less than 2% of the times I leave the house. The ten 9mm rds in the Kimber or 8 rds in the .45 I feel like it's enough you may not.

 

[sniper]

Most of us will never use our firearm in self defense, and I would guess that most of us will never have a reason to draw our weapon. Yet I read frequently about folks carry two, or even three guns routinely, and/or carrying several extra magazines. Maybe I am being naive, but it seems that carrying almost any gun, including a two shot Derringer, is probably going to do the job just as well as the Glock 17 with three extra mags on the belt. When I carried a lightweight snub nose 38, with 5 rounds, I never worried about being unprepared. Most of the time I carry a 9mm with 10 rounds, but lately I sometimes carry a 22 with 10 rounds and feel just as well equipped to deal with whatever might be facing me that day. I'd guess many here don't have the same view on this.

O.K., SO WHAT?

 

[Terry G]

I've been in one firefight in my life. It involved me and a friend covering in a ditch trading bullets with some teenager in a thicket with an AK. I burned 90 rounds in about three minutes, mostly with "suppressive" fire that was over a range of about 50 yards. It was definitely not the coolest or most composed or most glorious moment in the Army's history. In hindsight, if I had to do it again, I would tell myself to slow down, breathe, look and squeeze. I think everyone involved in that situation panicked, and I don't think there's a way around that without extensive experience very few people have. Thing was, though, it ultimately wasn't the capacity of my rifle that mattered, it was me remembering my training using the sites and crawling back up. I think the biggest lesson for me from that experience, aside from that I don't like being shot at, was that if I am going to carry and use a firearm, I need to be very calm and very deliberate about how I do that, and I need to train to reinforce those skills.

Part of me wonders if I would have done a "better" job of it if I hadn't been so enthusiastic firing out rounds, but that's a very different and difficult question.

I fired Expert with the M-14 and M-16, First fire fight I MIGHT have come within five or ten Meters if the enemy. Combat is NOT the same as the range.

 

[Cracker224]

Started carrying at 23 aftt the police academy. Only neen in one shooting with a guy that had an SKS, I only had a Glock, partner luckily had a shotgun..

I don't go anywhere without a CCW..Usually a Shield 40, Shield Plus or a S&W 640. In colder months (in Florida) the G lock gets carried..The Shield 40 is my favorite handgun with the extended magazine and an extra mag in a pocket magazine holster..

It is a nice flat shooting lil 40 cal..

 

[Rocketmedic40]

I fired Expert with the M-14 and M-16, First fire fight I MIGHT have come within five or ten Meters if the enemy. Combat is NOT the same as the range.

And that's the rub…for a defensive encounter, it's a high-stress, low-control situation. But unlike combat, or to a greater extent, every single round fired is our direct and personal legal responsibility. Even perceptions matter in the aftermath. We don't want to be seen as "looking for trouble", or worse, having directly inflamed it. But we want the rounds on hand to do the job, and since there's money to be made in pushing the limits of worry and concern, people and products push the limits of what's possible.

I'd just hate for someone to have their life even more upended in a legit-but-questionable situation because a DA showcases their extended-mag, RDO/laser/FRT firearm with "problem solver" decals and Punisher skulls or whatnot stenciled on it as "proof" that they were out looking for trouble and finding it.

Frankly, I'd hate it more when the above conduct results in odious rules and laws for all of the rest of us.

 

[rwsmith]

Any carry gun I've got has ten rounds. Since I don't believe in 'one shot stops' that's enough for three perps, three shots each and one spare. Or five perps two shots each. If the number of perps aren't easily divisible by ten I'll have to do the math on the fly.

OH! Plus one in the chamber.

 

[duncan4521]

View attachment 764910
That's why I live here.

It's beautiful, I too live in a safe locale, but when Cheyenne, Wy has a No Kings protest coming this Saturday is any place truly safe anymore?

 

[Smoke]

It's beautiful, I too live in a safe locale, but when Cheyenne, Wy has a No Kings protest coming this Saturday is any place truly safe anymore?

No place has truly been safe ever

 

[skwchock]

A gun -- regardless of caliber-- is better than no gun at all. A 5 round snubbie is just as effective as a 17 round glock- if you are trained and know how to shoot. No "spray and pray" -- shot placement is key.