Low Handgun Lethality Rates?

I wasn't changing the subject; I think shot placement has a lot to do with lethality. Most self-defense shootings are made under a lot of stress. When someone might be returning fire, the stress rises even more, causing poorly placed shots. I think that has more to do with the low lethality of self-defense shootings than caliber choice. I think it should be obvious that the 9mm would not be a good choice for deer or hogs and you would not have 100% lethality.

I can't disagree with any of that, but most shootings are at extremely close range, like three feet. Even under stress shot placement shouldn't be that difficult. I just think it would be a tragedy for someone to get killed by a man he had already shot because he used an under powered round. Unfortunately it happens a lot, even when the attacker is armed with a knife. 100% lethality in a matter of seconds means less chance of him killing me after I shoot him.
 
Just a quick suggestion: Check yer local hunting law's as a 9mm might NOT be legal to hunt deer/larger game with!

In Ohio, only straight walled cartridges are allowed for deer hunting.

Of the approved calibers, 9mm is on the list.

Although not my first choice, someone at ODNR thinks it works.
 
So what? You say we should be carrying 6in 44mag revolvers? Took 3 seconds of Google to find a story of a woman surviving a 44 between the eyes. Another 5 seconds of s man surviving a 44mag. Another few seconds and a man survives multiple 308 rounds from a machine gun.

I'll stick with the rink dink 9mm, which can be shot fast and accurate with good results. Try using that 44 in a real life like situation and not a hunt. Seriously. ...take a few courses with thay and use SD ammo...not watered down relaods

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One is those who hunt with handguns tend to shoot a lot more than most cops and concealed carriers. They tend to be much better shots and can shoot at much longer ranges. They want the shot to be placed in a much smaller area.

Care to post a link to your supporting data?
 
There are two important factors involved. One is those who hunt with handguns tend to shoot a lot more than most cops and concealed carriers. They tend to be much better shots and can shoot at much longer ranges. They want the shot to be placed in a much smaller area. The other important factor is hunters tend to use much more powerful handguns than cops and concealed carriers.

And, yes, it may be easier to snipe a deer or hog from a stand than to shoot a running, ducking criminal who is partly behind cover and shooting at you, after all, there is no "getting off the X when hunting," but it's also a lot easier to hit a criminal at arm's length, where many shootings happen, than it is to shoot a deer at 100 yards. The shortest range I've shot a deer or hog was about 30 yards, much farther than most defensive shootings happen.

Can you hit that hog from 30 yards by drawing from concealment and firing in less than 2 seconds? If you're taking deliberate aim at a threat at 30 yards, it is unlikely that you'll be able to use self defense as a defense . . .
 
This is what I expected. You're changing the subject.

I think he was sorting it out. The original post seemed to me to wander a bit, but I'm easily confused in my old age.

Lethality in hunting and lethality in attempting to save my elderly bacon seem very different subjects. When I was still able to hunt I wanted to kill game quickly and cleanly, without causing the animal undue suffering. If, God forbid, I'm forced to use a gun to defend myself against a human, all I want is for him to stop trying to hurt me. It's just fine with me if the miscreant doesn't croak but also doesn't cause me to.

If that's changing the subject, so be it. I hope it doesn't offend you.
 
So what is your point?

No, I do not think any 9mm round will kill a deer or hog as fast and cleanly as a .44 mag or even .357. This comes from my experience of the .44 mag being about twice as effective on game as the .357. Yes, a 9mm will kill a deer or hog if it's put in the right place and it gets past the ribs, so will a .22. I doubt it would do the job as fast and may take way too long, and let the animal get away to die slow and the meat wasted.

As for head shots, the .22 has been known to slide along the skull of men under the skin and never get past the bone. It's possible a 9mm might do that on hogs and deer if the angle is wrong. There was a dentist who was shot by a druggie something like five times in the head with a .22 handgun. The dentist took the gun away and beat his brains out with it. Not to say the .22 fails to get past the skull 100% of the time.

Memories of law enforcement shootings of decades past when the criminals went down and out fast back when magnum revolvers were still in use by some agencies coupled with all the shootings nowadays where the criminal is hit many times and stays in the fight is what prompted me to post (that and my experience with handgun hunting). I saw a vid out of South America where a man with a knife killed about four cops armed with handguns and rifles! At least one cop died within seconds of being stabbed. Finally, a cop shot the nut several times but he lived! He was able to stay awake and sit up while most of the cops died before they could get them in a car to haul to the hospital. It was the result of no training, but that's not the point.

First, if you want to keep on the topic of the 9mm, you already know the answer - so use something else.

"It was a result of no training, but that's not the point." Other then watching you tube vids of officer involved shootings (OIS in the biz), what is you experience, training, education or expertise in them? Have you been in one? Or investigated them or both? Have you been trained as a local, state or federal officer?

You appear to be making one point about 9mm and yet go off on tangents re: LEO's and shootings, seemingly without understanding much about shootings, LEO'S or what training they receive...including the studies of the psychological effects of the aftermath. You rather glibly make comments about these incidents-have you ever been **** scarred? Have you ever had someone seemingly normal, turn on you in a millisecond?

If you are complaining about lack of training, perhaps look to your politicians locally and see how they fund your agency. Please don't make blanket generalizations about the folks out there until you know more about it. Until you've pushed that black and white around awhile.

And if I am misunderstanding what you are trying say, try to put your thoughts out more cogently.
 
This whole discussion is based on a false dichotomy, if I'm hunting

1. I pick my location
2. I'm shooting from a supported position
3. I have ample time to set up my shot
4. I pick the shot
5. I'm essentially ambushing an animal who doesn't even know I'm there.

And we all know self defense shooting are just like that ....

Not.
 
I’ve never shot a deer or hog with a 9mm. In fact I’ve never used a 9mm on any living thing. Now the FBI says the 9mm works as well as any other handgun because of advances in bullet design. Well, if these new bullets work as well as a .44 magnum SWC does on deer and hogs, I would be very surprised. Maybe next season I’ll hunt with a Glock 17 and see. Do you think I can expect 100% lethality within a minute, usually 30 or so seconds?
"There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto."
The FBI does not say that all pistol calibers are the same; it says that there is an insignificant difference between the common service calibers. I predict that if you use 9mm with the appropriate ammunition and maintain your shot placement you will still have an excellent record.
 
It should be of no surprise that the most lethal rounds are the best rounds to stop an attack. A dead attacker is a neutralized threat, absolutely. Also, the rounds that are best at killing are the best at doing damage to less than vital structures in the body of an attacker, i.e. a 20 gauge shotgun rifled slug to the knee will do a better job of reducing the combat capabilities of an attacker than a 40 grain lead round nose .22 LR. The most lethal rounds are the most damaging and disabling rounds, and are, shot for shot, better in every hit in a gunfight.

Let's say you hit the pelvic girdle. Now, we have boiled won the question of wither or not you should ever aim for the pelvis, but, let's put that aside and focus on the hit to the pelvis itself. Even if you don't aim for it, you might hit it anyways, correct? If we hit an attacker in the hip, which bullet will do better, a 9mm 124 hollow point, a 45 230 grain hollow point, a 255 grain semi wadcutter 45 Colt, a 240 grain 44 Magnum soft point? Even if we don't aim at limbs, which bullet might disable the limb and reduce combat effectiveness of the attacker if we hit them anyways in the fight? Which bullet will crush hard tissues more effectively, traumatize nerves?

We can say that a 9mm hollow point to the center of the heart is as deadly as a 12 gauge shotgun blast using 00 buckshot. But, at close range, the shotgun will do a better job against a femur, a knee, and can almost sever some people's arms. I was reading about some self defense where a man shot two female attackers with his 20 gauge using buckshot, and one attacker had her arm almost ripped off. Sorry, but that's effectiveness, and something you don't get from most handguns, and certainly not from mouse guns.

Like it or not, there will be times that 9mm can't outdo a 45 heavy weight bullet, where the bigger heavier bullet will do better against bone. There will be rare instances of shots where a big fat large bore wadcutter will outdo a modern hollow point out of a smaller caliber. That's just how things go, the body and shot angles offer many, many different hits and scenarios. To sit here and say that 44 Magnum is too powerful for self defense because of recoil, ect, is one argument, to say that a high power heavy magnum round will never pay off is quite another.

As for effectiveness vs full power rifle, I can't disagree more. Almost every single vital shot I've done, or seen, with high power rifle leads to dropping the deer dead, and if they run, its extremely short distance. To me, the notion that handgun rounds kill as quickly and effectively in hunting is absurd for medium game. High power rifles generate so an incredible amount of damage vs. a high power handgun, the two can't be compared, its unfair.

Also, when you read about men taking multiple 308 or 7.62x39 rounds and living, notice that those stories come from war where they are using FMJ. Such incidents using soft points are EXTREMELY rare, and people who take torso shots using soft points and living are quite noteworthy, and when you examine those cases, the bullets usually hit the extreme exterior of the trunk. Anything interior center of mass will create an unsurvivable wound. Truth being that using soft points, not Hague convention bullets, center of mass shots really do reach almost 100% lethality in humans.

To say that 9mm hollow points are as effective in stopping an attacker as .308 soft points is a laugh riot, worthy of the finest jokesters. To say that lethality doesn't matter in stopping an attacker is dead wrong, to say that damage potential of bullets isn't important is dead wrong. You don't know what kind of wounds you might inflict and how they will slow down, impair, or outright stop an attacker. Firepower does matter, wither you want to rationalize it away or not.
 
Years ago I remember reading an article with some stats on shootings (of humans) and lethality. While I can't quote the article exactly, from my memory they said that about 75% of people shot with handguns survive leaving approximately 25% fatal and just about the reverse for shotguns and rifles with 75% +/- fatality and 25% +/- survival.

They noted that the lethality rate of shootings post WWII had declined significantly over the years as the US population became more urban and handguns became the more common weapon used as well as improved medicine and emergency response.

Before WWII the population was more rural and most shootings where done with rifles and shotguns.
 
I started reading this thread yesterday, and I had to think over it before I fully understood it enough to comment.

First and foremost, not every police officer is the equal of Harry Callahan, and isn't carrying a 44 Magnum. In many respects, police carry what civilian oversight dictates. What civilian oversight dictates is usually influenced by the communities' geographic composition, police training and qualification programs, personal opinion, ignorance on their part, and potentially general misinformation.

A philosophy that I remember being hashed around in the '70s and '80s is that communities didn't want highly qualified marksmen on forces, because being highly proficient with firearms increased the likelihood of lawsuits when a firearm was discharged.

In today's society, not all people are proficient with rifle or shotgun, and handguns are supposed to be more difficult to shoot accurately.

All firearms, be it a rifle, pistol, or shotgun, are lethal, provided that the arm is shot accurately and the shot is well placed. Remember, close only counts in horse shoes, hand grenades, and atomic bombs. If you can't hit your target center of mass, the target is not neutralized. In many instances, we are putting handguns in the hands of law enforcement personnel that can't qualify with them. The same can be applied with the military.

When I was growing up, my hometown police had this same problem. They had problems stopping armed criminals. They didn't look at the fact that the officers barely qualified, they viewed the 38 Special as being under powered. Therefore, they retired the department's Model 10s and replaced them with Model 58s and the enemic 41 Magnum police load. This in the suburbs of Philadelphia.

In my opinion, for whatever it is worth, it is not that the firearms are less lethal, it is the person behind the firearm that is less lethal. Marksmanship and training are the only solution to making armed encounters more lethal, despite bleeding heart liberal rhetoric. I realize that our first goal is neutralizing a threat, not to kill, but whenever you employ lethal/deadly force, death is always a likely consequence for the perpetrator.
 
Can you hit that hog from 30 yards by drawing from concealment and firing in less than 2 seconds? If you're taking deliberate aim at a threat at 30 yards, it is unlikely that you'll be able to use self defense as a defense . . .

YES!!!!
When I practice/train with my self-defense handguns I train all the way out to 100 yards. 30 yards is extremely close range to me.
 
People, ballistics are ballistics. All the other stuff is just stuff. Cops today are carrying under powered handguns.
 
If you can't draw on signal, a random timer buzzer, and hit a target at 25 yards, first shot in less than 1.5 seconds by looking over the sights (not through them) and put two more fast rounds in a 12-inch group with a .357 revolver, you need more training/practice. Using revolvers, I have shot running deer ahead of dogs by swinging on the buck with the sights aligned with each other (but not on target yet) and looking over those sights and squeezing the trigger, pretty much the same way a shotgun is used to hit flying birds. I've done this several times with a .44 mag revolver. I once swung on a running deer ahead of dogs and as soon as the sights were under his head I squeezed the trigger. It disappeared so fast behind brush I thought I'd missed. I found him 25 yards away right where I had shot. The bullet had hit him in the Atlas joint. In many decades of hunting, I've lost only one animal I wounded. That was a hog shot with a bow. I do not consider myself to be a great shot in any way whatsoever. Most people, including cops, just do not shoot enough. I have a range on my property and shoot almost every day, often hundreds of rounds a day.

From concealment, you're going to need more time at longer ranges, maybe 2 seconds or three at 25 yards. (I don't carry concealed when hunting and usually have the handgun in my hand, not holstered.) But uniformed cops carry openly with holsters that are designed for fast draw, at least more so than an inside the pants holster. At arm's length from open carry, anyone can train to get a shot off in half a second.
 
"There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto."
The FBI does not say that all pistol calibers are the same; it says that there is an insignificant difference between the common service calibers. I predict that if you use 9mm with the appropriate ammunition and maintain your shot placement you will still have an excellent record.

The .357 use to be a "commonly used caliber for law enforcement." That caliber has a much better record than the 9mm. The FBI has been wrong about a lot of things on many occasions. Look up their crime lab record, especially the fact it was proven their claim to be able to determine if a lead bullet came from a certain box of ammo by analyzing the lead alloy was not true. A judge ordered many thousands of cases going back decades to be retried because of this. Last I read, the judge's order has been ignored.
 
First, if you want to keep on the topic of the 9mm, you already know the answer - so use something else.

"It was a result of no training, but that's not the point." Other then watching you tube vids of officer involved shootings (OIS in the biz), what is you experience, training, education or expertise in them? Have you been in one? Or investigated them or both? Have you been trained as a local, state or federal officer?

You appear to be making one point about 9mm and yet go off on tangents re: LEO's and shootings, seemingly without understanding much about shootings, LEO'S or what training they receive...including the studies of the psychological effects of the aftermath. You rather glibly make comments about these incidents-have you ever been **** scarred? Have you ever had someone seemingly normal, turn on you in a millisecond?

If you are complaining about lack of training, perhaps look to your politicians locally and see how they fund your agency. Please don't make blanket generalizations about the folks out there until you know more about it. Until you've pushed that black and white around awhile.

And if I am misunderstanding what you are trying say, try to put your thoughts out more cogently.

You seem to be completely confused. Perhaps this subject is too far from your life experiences for you to understand. Go shoot at least 300,000 rounds through handguns and come back. Better yet, go hunting for 50 years and get into a few gunfights with criminals, then come back.
 
If you can't draw on signal, a random timer buzzer, and hit a target at 25 yards, first shot in less than 1.5 seconds by looking over the sights (not through them) and put two more fast rounds in a 12-inch group with a .357 revolver, you need more training/practice. Using revolvers, I have shot running deer ahead of dogs by swinging on the buck with the sights aligned with each other (but not on target yet) and looking over those sights and squeezing the trigger, pretty much the same way a shotgun is used to hit flying birds. I've done this several times with a .44 mag revolver. I once swung on a running deer ahead of dogs and as soon as the sights were under his head I squeezed the trigger. It disappeared so fast behind brush I thought I'd missed. I found him 25 yards away right where I had shot. The bullet had hit him in the Atlas joint. In many decades of hunting, I've lost only one animal I wounded. That was a hog shot with a bow. I do not consider myself to be a great shot in any way whatsoever. Most people, including cops, just do not shoot enough. I have a range on my property and shoot almost every day, often hundreds of rounds a day.

From concealment, you're going to need more time at longer ranges, maybe 2 seconds or three at 25 yards. (I don't carry concealed when hunting and usually have the handgun in my hand, not holstered.) But uniformed cops carry openly with holsters that are designed for fast draw, at least more so than an inside the pants holster. At arm's length from open carry, anyone can train to get a shot off in half a second.

Just a casual observer here, mostly for my own amusement, but, by using your standards, very few people in this fine (and constitutionally protected) country should be carrying a weapon. Some people have neither the time, nor money, nor the interest to train that much.
I'd go a step further and declare that there are thousands upon thousands of "under-qualified" folks that have had quite a bit more success in protecting themselves than someone of your abilities.
Now if you're asking which round I'd pick if you were only going to give me one shot? I'm with you, I'll take a magnum. At 25 yds? I'll dial my lawyer before I squeeze off. Now excuse me while I go to disarm my mother...
 
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