Lyman cast data 231 and 38 Spl +P - Help needed

[ArchAngelCD]

It does seem when you look at the data for W231 and the data for HP-38 that Hodgdon always seems to pick the most conservative of the rwo for their site.

According to the current data on the Hodgdon site my LONG TIME load of 4.0gr W231 under a 158gr LSWC bullet is .3gr over max. I have no doubt it is not.

 

[cowboy4evr]

That load of 3.9grs max makes me wonder if they are referring to swaged bullets . The load data for jacketed 158 gr bullets shows a max of 4.3 grs , +P is 4.6 grs.
My std load for many years under my 158gr cast bullet is 4.5 grs / 231 . It will stay that way . The poor ole 38spl has been beaten down so many times with reduced loads . Some say it's because of the import guns not being of good quality . Others say it's because of the 100+ yr old 38spl's still out there that weren't heat treated when being made .
I have never seen a pile of shot out 38's yet waiting for the scrap heap. During the time yrs ago they were being used the older manuals had some pretty hot loads .

 

[ArchAngelCD]

All I know is, current load data for the .38 Special deprives us of the true capabilities of that fine cartridge. It's no wonder why so many claim it's weak. I wonder why the 9mm isn't downloaded since there are also very old pistols out there too.

 

[cowboy4evr]

AA , I completely agree with you on all of your above statements . The 38spl is a very good defense round as well as " all around " cartridge . There's a lot of bad guys taking a dirt nap because of it .
I am a real fan of HS-6 for 38spl and 357 mag (and others ) but I won't use Hodgdon's current load data , esp for the 357 . Look at the pressure they show for the max charge . I will not post my loads as they are over current max .
I am not recommending this to others , just saying that for my own personal use , I use older load manuals .

 

[fredj338]

Just a note. You cannot really extrapolate pressures. Every powder/cartridge builds presures diff. Faster powders are much steeper increases as you get to max. So forget charting & extrapolating pressures. Some powders spike as you go thru the max so 1/10gr can be a lot more pressure.

 

[bmcgilvray]

Just saw this thread.

Only one opinion here, but I just wouldn't use fast-burning powders in order to assemble "performance" .38 Special handloads because +P performance just can't be had.

Posted a personal test here a few years back. See post No. 42. Note that the slower powders used yield the highest velocities, even in 2-inch barrels. One would run well off into the weeds with pressure issues before such velocities could be attained with 231 or similar.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/144598-some-38-special-chronograph-tests.html

 

[fredj338]

Just saw this thread.

Only one opinion here, but I just wouldn't use fast-burning powders in order to assemble "performance" .38 Special handloads because +P performance just can't be had.

Posted a personal test here a few years back. See post No. 42. Note that the slower powders used yield the highest velocities, even in 2-inch barrels. One would run well off into the weeds with pressure issues before such velocities could be attained with 231 or similar.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/144598-some-38-special-chronograph-tests.html

100% correct + the pressure curves aren't as steep as powders slow down. So going a little over book, usually less pressure drama. I would go a bit slower with WSF or Unique to get +P vel with safer pressures. Yes you will get more blast & flash, but you will get higher vel with less pressures.

 

[Qc Pistolero]

I'd go with Unique(or other with similar burning rate);much safer and it delivers!
Qc

 

[riverrat38]

Unique and HP38 are right next to each other on at least some burn rate tables.
Is there really that much difference?

Best,
Rick

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Unique and HP38 are right next to each other on at least some burn rate tables.
Is there really that much difference?

Best,
Rick

I have never seen them right next to each other. Close but not right next to the other.

As for differences, even if they were right next to each other, the return rate chart will tell you which is faster or slower, not how much faster or slower.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

AA , I completely agree with you on all of your above statements . The 38spl is a very good defense round as well as " all around " cartridge . There's a lot of bad guys taking a dirt nap because of it .
I am a real fan of HS-6 for 38spl and 357 mag (and others ) but I won't use Hodgdon's current load data , esp for the 357 . Look at the pressure they show for the max charge . I will not post my loads as they are over current max .
I am not recommending this to others , just saying that for my own personal use , I use older load manuals .

I am also a huge fan if HS-6 for the .38 Special +P and .357 Magnum but like you said, not with Hodgdon Load Data. Lyman gives us more realistic data that goes up to 9.7gr HS-6 under a 158gr LSWC bullet. My standard middle .357Magnum load is 9.2gr HS-6 under the same bullet. Great small game and plinking load too.

 

[fredj338]

Unique and HP38 are right next to each other on at least some burn rate tables.
Is there really that much difference?

Best,
Rick

In a word, yes. Burn rate doesnt tell the entire story & it changes with each caliber/cartridge & even with bullet wts. Again pressure curves are diff even if burn rates are sim. The faster the powder the steeper the curve.