M&P 9 2.0 Compact Optics Ready and Leupold Deltapoint Pro Cowitness

[AKABooMBiP]

Hi everyone...I'm new to the forum and I couldn't find a definitive answer to this. I just purchased a M&P 9 2.0 Compact Optics Ready with a Leupold Deltapoint Pro. To my surprise when I mounted the optic it doesn't cowitness with the Trijicon suppressor sights that came on the gun. Is there any work around to this or do I have to just return the Deltapoint pro? Very disappointing to say the least.

 

[mckenney99]

I do not believe the sights are designed to co-witness with the red-dot. The best you can hope for is the sights to be visible in the lower 1/3rd of the red-dot window. If you think about how high your fixed sights would have to be in order to be perfectly co-witnessed, then you would see that they would obstruct your view through the lens.

 

[AKABooMBiP]

I was under the impression that it was designed for that. Optics are great, but irons are the fail safe when there is an issue with the optic. The rmr seems like it cowitnesses but I'm not 100% sure. Hopefully someone else can chime in.

 

[CB3]

It is my understanding the DP has a higher window (thicker/taller base) than other competing red dots. Add to that the extra plate required to mount it in the universal mounting system, you will need extra tall suppressor sights to get a 1/3 co-witness. As well, the DP has a unique footprint compared to other RDS.

If S&W supplied sights high enough for a co-witness with the DP, the windows of other more popular RDS that sit lower in/on the slide would be too occluded. S&W picked the sight height that would meet most requirements.

I'm sorry to say, but I believe this problem has been discussed numerous times in this and other forums, including Glocks. The DP is a great sight, but it has some important mounting distinctions from other sights.

 

[SoCalDep]

I was under the impression that it was designed for that. Optics are great, but irons are the fail safe when there is an issue with the optic. The rmr seems like it cowitnesses but I'm not 100% sure. Hopefully someone else can chime in.

The RMR and SRO co-witness with the iron sights. Hopefully in the past half a year or so they've fixed the issue with the factory suppressor night sights shooting WAY high as I had to switch out the rear sights on my 2.0 COREs (and have seen it on dozens of COREs) to get POA/POI. If that's still the case I wouldn't worry too much about having to switch out the front sight.

I can't say for sure with the 2.0 compact, but one of my fellow instructors has been fighting the DeltaPoint Pro (DPP)/CORE game for a while with a 4.25" CORE and he uses the Leupold DPP rear sight with a Dawson 0.460 front sight. It sits well at the bottom of the window with the fiber optic visible but not taking up too much of the window.

My department requires backup iron sights and I agree with that policy because I wrote it. That said, the iron sights should be unobtrusive and sit at the bottom of the window so as not to obscure the view. The term "Co-witness" is frequently misunderstood and misused. There can be a "true" co-witness, where the reticle, when centered in the optic window, is in alignment with the iron sights. My department's rifles currently use a "lower 3rd co-witness" where the iron sights sit low in the window. The optic reticle, when placed low in the window, is still generally aligned with the iron sights, but that's a by-product of the zero process, not an efficient way to use the optic.

Visible iron sights on optic-equipped pistols perform three functions. They offer a backup precision aiming method in the unlikely (if run right) event the optic doesn't function. They also provide a way to confirm the zero of the optic on a regular basis without having to shoot. If one can't find the dot during the presentation, the muzzle should be raised enough to see the front sight, which is then lowered into the rear notch. Either the dot comes into view or the irons are aligned. In all other circumstances the iron sights should be ignored and if you have to continually use the irons to find the dot you aren't doing it right. A true co-witness in a pistol optic is the mark of someone who doesn't know what they are doing. The iron sights should be as low as possible but still visible and useable.

In short, there are ways to get the performance you want out of your DeltaPoint Pro setup. It will cost you money but will be cheaper than getting a new optic. The DeltaPoint Pro isn't my favorite optic, and the base height is a big reason why. That said, it's a good optic and I ran the 10,000 round test and wrote the report that resulted in its approval for my department.

I've spend a very large portion of the last three years working on pistol optics in a professional capacity and while I'm by no means the final word I have a fair amount of research, experience, and probably a six-digit round count through optic-equipped handguns. If you have any questions please feel free to ask and I'm more than happy to offer my thoughts.

 

[AKABooMBiP]

In short, there are ways to get the performance you want out of your DeltaPoint Pro setup. It will cost you money but will be cheaper than getting a new optic. The DeltaPoint Pro isn't my favorite optic, and the base height is a big reason why. That said, it's a good optic and I ran the 10,000 round test and wrote the report that resulted in its approval for my department.

What suggestions do you have? I know I can get a rear sight on the DPP but in my case it is redundant and a downgrade because of the suppressor night sights already on the pistol.

 

[SoCalDep]

What suggestions do you have? I know I can get a rear sight on the DPP but in my case it is redundant and a downgrade because of the suppressor night sights already on the pistol.

It's not redundant in your case because your suppressor sights are too low to work with the optic you chose. You either need to accept that the optic you chose is too high to work with the irons currently on the gun, or change the irons, or change the optic.

If you decide to go with option 1 you don't have to change anything on the gun but don't have useable iron sights.

If you decide to change the irons you'll want to (probably) go with the Leupold rear sight and a 0.460 front. You will need to be careful about holster selection with that tall of a front sight.

If you change the optic you may be able to retain the iron sights which may shoot to POA/POI or may not and you might have to switch them out anyway.

 

[AKABooMBiP]

Thanks for the advice. I guess the only way to know for sure is to mount the other optic on the pistol and see what the view is like with the current sights. This is definitely a hard pill to swallow knowing the cost of the DPP. Decisions, decisions...

 

[SoCalDep]

What is the other optic?

 

[AKABooMBiP]

RMR Type 2

Edit...I realized you did say the RMR should provide an iron sight backup option on this pistol. I'd just like to see what the sight picture will look like exactly. The RMR and DPP were the only 2 options that I personally considered.

 

[SoCalDep]

I have three RMRs, and two of them are mounted on COREs. I like them.

As I mentioned earlier, I'm not a huge fan of the DeltaPoint Pro. It is more popular in competition due to the larger window. That larger window is only marginally effective in assisting in acquiring the dot but it generates more glare in certain sun positions. Given the choice for "performance" as a go-fast optic, I much prefer the Trijicon SRO. With the DPP it is harder to adjust the dot brightness but that's a minor concern if one trains to find a single brightness level that works in all conditions (more helpful if one is using a weapon light as it makes conditions a bit more consistent). There are no drain holes from the emitter as there are on the RMR. Water exposure could effect the optic more compared to the RMR. I know a few guys who used a DPP in the past who have moved on to other sights and use the DPP as an offset backup on rifles with variable optics.

Either way, I recommend Duracell batteries and not the Energizer that comes with the RMR or Panasonic that comes with the DPP. The Duracells last WAY longer.

Since you can use the screws that came with the RMR to mount it (You have to get different screws for the Glock MOS) I would recommend the following steps:

1. Degrease all surfaces to include the screws and threads in the slide.
2. The threadlocker they include with the Trijicon screws is "ok", but I try to remove as much as I can with the degreaser (Gun Scrubber) and I use Loctite 248 - the one that comes in what looks like an old glue-stick. It's easy to apply evenly around the threads without putting too much or having it drip all over, and it's not so strong that you can't remove it by hand.
3. Use a sealing plate if you are going to be exposed to water. S&W told us a sealing plate wasn't needed. Our testing has shown otherwise.
4. Tighten the screws in an alternating fashion once you feel any resistance. We use a torque wrench and go to 15 in/lbs. You don't need or want to go any tighter than that.
5. You can mark the screws with Torque Seal or (my preference) an oil-based paint pen. If you're using the pen I recommend making a little puddle on a piece of foil or wax paper or plastic and using a toothpick to apply a thin line across one side of the screw onto the optic body. Using the toothpick prevents the unfortunate situation where the pen pukes up a bunch of paint all over the optic - ask me how I know... Some paint should flow around the screw and it makes it much easier to see if the screw is starting to come loose before it shears and causes bigger problems. You can easily remove the paint (as opposed to the Torque Seal) with some Gun Scrubber on a q-tip when you have to remove the RMR to change the. Battery.

 

[AKABooMBiP]

Thanks again for all of the information. Now I just have to figure out what I'm going to do with the DPP and purchase an RMR. Needless to say this will be an expensive lesson.

 

[AKABooMBiP]

I was able to achieve what I set out to do. I opted to get rid of the DPP and go with the RMR. It's crazy how much thicker the DPP base is compared to the RMR. Now I don't have to touch the sights at all. I can't stress enough how much I appreciate the information everyone gave me!

 

[lhump1961]

Forgive me for asking but what is the benefit of co-witnessing with the iron sights? I have a couple of red dots and the reason I have them is quicker acquisition over iron sights. I'm happy using the red dot instead of iron sights so why both? If the red dot dies and you revert to irons why would they need to co-witness? Just use one or the other. I'm sure I'm missing something so ready to learn.

 

[CB3]

Maybe cowitnessing means something a little different than you understand.

The concept is that iron sights shoot to a certain point of aim, point of impact. Cowitnessing simply means that the red dot also covers the same point of impact as the iron sights.

Thus, as you correctly stated, you use one or the other, generally ignoring the iron sights and using the dot. Either system will give you the same PoI.

If the dot fails, the irons still work.

Usually you want both front and rear irons when aligned to protrude into as little of the bottom of the RDS window as allows them still to be useable. That is usually from about 20% to a max of 30%. You don't want the irons to occlude the RDS window any more than necessary. You control the protrusion into the window by the height of your front and rear sights.

I hope that helps. There is more to using an RDS than just cowitnessing, but it is a feature that is sometimes discounted or misunderstood.

 

[Saudade]

Forgive me for asking but what is the benefit of co-witnessing with the iron sights? I have a couple of red dots and the reason I have them is quicker acquisition over iron sights. I'm happy using the red dot instead of iron sights so why both? If the red dot dies and you revert to irons why would they need to co-witness? Just use one or the other. I'm sure I'm missing something so ready to learn.

CB3 said it well!!

You may have heard/read the term "Lower 1/3 cowitness". That's what CB3 was describing about the sights protrude into the RDS window but in the "lower 1/3" to not obstruct the dot. If the red dot fails, you can't simply remove it to use the irons if you're in the middle of dealing with an issue.

The same thing is often done on rifles, such as an AR-15. However, on a rifle like an AR, you also have options on QD mounts and flip up sights.

 

[ppd1107]

Can you still see the factory suppressor sights looking through the Luepold Deltapoint pro? I realize the sights are not going to be lined up with the dot but are the iron sights visible?

 

[CB3]

Can you still see the factory suppressor sights looking through the Luepold Deltapoint pro? I realize the sights are not going to be lined up with the dot but are the iron sights visible?

No, not cowitnessed through the red dot, as this whole thread explained.

 

[The Norseman]

Witness Protection

AKABooMBiP welcome to the Smith & Wesson Forum.
The Best. Accept no substitutes.

Very good question about "co-witness" sights.

I'm not into this type of setup, but I have learned
a lot reading the comments.

The best to you and your endeavors.

Point and Shoot 6, 45Colt can dangerously get it done.

 

[ppd1107]

Being co witnessed and visible are two different things. It seems like there is some confusion on this point.

 

[CB3]

Being co witnessed and visible are two different things. It seems like there is some confusion on this point.

I'm not sure what you mean by "visible".

To cowitness iron sights with a red dot sight (RDS), one turns off the RDS. One gets a proper sight alignment front/rear of the iron sights THROUGH THE WINDOW, with both the rear and front sights visible, ideally in the lower 1/4-1/3 of the window. The iron sights must be just the right height to protrude into the window AND align for an accurate shot.

Then one adjusts the iron sights for Point of Aim (PoA) to Point of Impact (PoI), just as with any gun with iron sights but while seeing the sights (visible) through the window.

Next, one turns on the RDS. One looks through the window and adjusts the position of the dot in the window until it covers the same PoI produced by the properly aligned iron sights that are visible through the RDS window. So, using either sighting system, alone or together, one will get the same bullet strike. This is cowitnessed.

The front and rear iron sights must both be visible through the window for this to work. If they are too low to protrude up into the window, as is the case with the extra tall Leupold Delta Point Pro (DPP) RDS which blocks use of the OEM iron sights, they are useless for any kind of sight alignment as long as the RDS is mounted to the gun. The rear sight is always "visible", but unusable, and the front sight is invisible when the gun is held in a firing orientation.

The shorter and more common height bases of other RDS's allow the OEM S&W suppressor height iron sights to be seen through the RDS windows of almost all other RDS. This thread is about the OP's disappointment that his chosen sight (DPP) would not work with his S&W OEM suppressor height (higher than normal) sights. He solved his problem by getting a standard height Trij RMR which allowed both front and rear OEM suppressor height sights to be visible in the lower 1/3 of the RMR window and therefore used for cowitnessing.

I hope this clarifies the relationship between visible and cowitnessed.

CO-WITNESSING PISTOL SIGHTS AND RED DOTS? | Gabe Suarez Blog

 

[Paul105]

Took delivery on a PC .40 S&W ported CORE. Wanted to mount an RMRcc (the new compact version of the RMR). S&W Adapter plated not included for the RMRcc so ordered the Trijicon adapter. When mounted, it elevated the RMRcc too much, obscuring the back up sights.

Switched to the standard RMR with the S&W provided adapter plate. Initial sight adjustment - sights to hit 1.5" low at 12 yds with 165gr Win Bonded, 180gr Wolf, and 180gr Buffalo Bore +P.

Wobbly rest allowed hits on 9" plates at 40yds - dot center hold, backup sights 6 o'clock hold. Quick check with caliper shows both front and rear back up sights are approx .330" above top of slide.

Here's a picture of the dot/sights with initial dot sight setting mentioned above.

.
Here's a picture of the sights.
.

Developing carry load (back country) and will finalized sight setting when load settled on.

FWIW,

Paul

 

[Ethang]

Took delivery on a PC .40 S&W ported CORE. Wanted to mount an RMRcc (the new compact version of the RMR). S&W Adapter plated not included for the RMRcc so ordered the Trijicon adapter. When mounted, it elevated the RMRcc too much, obscuring the back up sights.

Switched to the standard RMR with the S&W provided adapter plate. Initial sight adjustment - sights to hit 1.5" low at 12 yds with 165gr Win Bonded, 180gr Wolf, and 180gr Buffalo Bore +P.

Wobbly rest allowed hits on 9" plates at 40yds - dot center hold, backup sights 6 o'clock hold. Quick check with caliper shows both front and rear back up sights are approx .330" above top of slide.

Here's a picture of the dot/sights with initial dot sight setting mentioned above.

.
Here's a picture of the sights.
.

Developing carry load (back country) and will finalized sight setting when load settled on.

FWIW,

Paul

if the picture of that dot is what you see I am jealous... mine with an astigmatism looks like a giant glob of dots with tails sticking out in all directions...

 

[CB3]

if the picture of that dot is what you see I am jealous... mine with an astigmatism looks like a giant glob of dots with tails sticking out in all directions...

I also have astigmatism. The smaller and dimmer the dot, the less bloom. I use 3 MoA dots. With brightness turned up, they become 4-5 MoA blooming dots (Trij RMR 06). Larger dots are worse.

These dot photos are shot with a slight telephoto for better focus, so the dot is actually a little larger than I see it. It is on setting #3 from "off".

The first photo shows proper two sight system co-witness. The second shows how I use the dot centered in the window. Note that the front iron sight is pointed up toward the dot, co-witnessed.