My motto, "I'm too cute for prison".
M1917 Mystery
- Thread starter gfraz
- Start date
cgt4570
Member
I had to 'coerce' a couple of auction houses to accept returns of similar guns with SN issues years ago. You just have to use the right key words and catchy phrases, like threat of being sued for knowingly (or should have known as an FFL dealer, they failed to do their due diligence) making their bidder a potential felon.
There is an exception to the situation which may or not apply here. If the SN is stamped on the frame because the SN on the butt was removed due to a refinish, installation of a swivel, or possible other reasons the stamping of it on the frame suffices. At least that was the assessment made here in the past when the issue has been discussed. There is no way to know when or by whom an SN added to the frame was stamped there.
I recently showed a heavily modified 1917 where that was done. The SN had also been restamped on the butt in the usual location but not in the 1917 format.
Jeff
SWCA #1457
There’s one other location where you still might find the original serial number because it’s hard to find:
The rear surface of the yoke with the cylinder open and looking through a cylinder chamber with a flash light. I’ve seen a 1917 with all serial numbers removed except that one, and had it restamped on bottom of the grip frame by a gunsmith and aligned nice and straight. I’ve also seen one gun butt stamped with a random 6 digit number in the proper Model 1917 military serial number range.
The number font (style) didn’t match the original factory stamped numbers but there was no original numbers left on the gun to compare it with.
The rear surface of the yoke with the cylinder open and looking through a cylinder chamber with a flash light. I’ve seen a 1917 with all serial numbers removed except that one, and had it restamped on bottom of the grip frame by a gunsmith and aligned nice and straight. I’ve also seen one gun butt stamped with a random 6 digit number in the proper Model 1917 military serial number range.
The number font (style) didn’t match the original factory stamped numbers but there was no original numbers left on the gun to compare it with.
Just out of curiosity, would the factory re-stamp the butt if the serial number in the other locations named here all match?
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2005
- Messages
- 26,074
- Reaction score
- 46,729
That prison must have some very rough lookin characters.....
During my LEO days, I took many fine folks to various lockups. Never once did I meet anyone at that location that I'd want to bunk with. Nuff said!
gwpercle
Member
I believe he will need a serial number to get a Letter from S&W .
It may be against some law to posses a firearm with the serial number removed ... you might want to check that out .
Welcome to the forum from Baton Rouge , Louisiana .
Gary
Just thinking about this, I find it hard to believe that this gun was sold by or received by any FFL. So likely the sale was illegal as well. Most FFL's won't touch a gun that was altered to remove the serial numbers. Now what to do? 22Highpower already covered it.
Last edited:
I bought my 1917 via Rock Island Auction. When it came in to my LGS and was time for transfer, everyone in the store wanted to use the assembly number on the frame opposite the yoke as the serial number. I had to teach them where the serial number was on old Smiths. I'm betting the guy that sold the OP his gun used the assembly number as the serial, not knowing any better.
StrawHat
Member
I've seen it done by an FFL, in that case he simply used the assembly number and insisted that was the SN. Of course I've bought other guns with the SN on the butt where the FFL used the assembly number anyway. I suspect there are more than a few 4473s completed using the assembly number.
Bought an older S&W from a pawn shop which handled lots of firearms a number of years ago. Didn't pay any attention to the paperwork until I got a call from the local LE folks asking me to bring it in. I did and it turned out the SN used had rung a bell somewhere as that number was the SN on a gun used to kill a NY LEO. Turned out the pawnshop had used the assembly number rather than the SN and oddly enough that assembly number matched the SN of a Colt 357 which apparently was still in the wind somewhere. Took me awhile to explain the difference between SNs and assembly numbers to the LEOs but they quickly sent me on my way once they understood it.
Jeff
SWCA #1457
Last edited:
LEO's,,Dealer-FFL's,,,they aren't always the vast collection of knowledge you may think they are when it comes to firearms.
I've seen everything from Caliber, inspection #'s and patent numbers placed on PD reports as Ser#'s. Then those 'false Ser#'s' end up in NCIC as a stolen gun ser#.
Dealers overlooking scrubbed, altered, obliterated ser#'s on the frame of a firearm,,Something right at the top of the 'Do Not Do This list' for FFl's.
But for some reason some of them just look the other way and play dumb or are dumb. They choose another number off the gun and use it instead.
The fact that the frames ser# has been 'removed, altered, obliterated' seems never to be a concern.
The orig Mfg'r can re-stamp the orig ser# onto a firearm that THEY mfg'rd.
Current regs specify that the orig ser# must be viewable when the firearm is fully assembled. Anotherwords, the frame # not under the wood line of the factory asembly or any other factory part as sold.
Specs are layed out for size, depth, how it is applied, etc.
There used to be a process where by an Dealer FFL (o1)/Gunsmith 01/07 could request thru a form of the ATF the permission to move the factory applied mfg'rs ser# to another location on the frame.
It had to be for reasons of rebuild after repairs in that area, or for cosmetic upgrades (engraving sometimes used as a reason).
The simple install of a swivel in the butt of a S&W which would place it thru the ser# was one reason the move the factory ser (see below).
Generally the permission was granted w/o too much fanfare. Then as the yrs passed it became less and less easy to get the form approved.
Deny was the usual return in the later 80's and 90's.
I know many times I have read that FFL gunsmiths had the permission to simply restamp a buffed out or otherwise hard to read ser# on a firearm.
But I can't for the life of me ever remember such a rule as an FFL. I had my 01 FFL and had been doing gunsmithing since '71, but maybe missed that one.
The ATF form to request moving a factory Ser# on a frame I was very familiar with and used that a few timess at customers requests for engraving patterns.
Hamilton Bowen used to use the method when installing the swivel in the butt of handguns where the ser# would be drilled thru.
He mentions in his book that he stopped doing the modification after the ATF started denying the request on a regular basis.
Remember, Handguns were not REQUIRED to be ser#'d by manufacturers til Jan of 1958. Then the process began in July 1958.
(Along with Handguns, CF Rifles were included in the 1958 ruling).
However, IF a manufacturer did ser# ANY firearm that they made at any time previous or going forward, it has been a felony to alter, remove or obliterate that ser# since 1938 (Fed Firearms Act 1938)
Also felony to own, sell, transfer in any way or simply possess same.
Like the letter above shows,,it's pretty simply laid out.
I've seen everything from Caliber, inspection #'s and patent numbers placed on PD reports as Ser#'s. Then those 'false Ser#'s' end up in NCIC as a stolen gun ser#.
Dealers overlooking scrubbed, altered, obliterated ser#'s on the frame of a firearm,,Something right at the top of the 'Do Not Do This list' for FFl's.
But for some reason some of them just look the other way and play dumb or are dumb. They choose another number off the gun and use it instead.
The fact that the frames ser# has been 'removed, altered, obliterated' seems never to be a concern.
The orig Mfg'r can re-stamp the orig ser# onto a firearm that THEY mfg'rd.
Current regs specify that the orig ser# must be viewable when the firearm is fully assembled. Anotherwords, the frame # not under the wood line of the factory asembly or any other factory part as sold.
Specs are layed out for size, depth, how it is applied, etc.
There used to be a process where by an Dealer FFL (o1)/Gunsmith 01/07 could request thru a form of the ATF the permission to move the factory applied mfg'rs ser# to another location on the frame.
It had to be for reasons of rebuild after repairs in that area, or for cosmetic upgrades (engraving sometimes used as a reason).
The simple install of a swivel in the butt of a S&W which would place it thru the ser# was one reason the move the factory ser (see below).
Generally the permission was granted w/o too much fanfare. Then as the yrs passed it became less and less easy to get the form approved.
Deny was the usual return in the later 80's and 90's.
I know many times I have read that FFL gunsmiths had the permission to simply restamp a buffed out or otherwise hard to read ser# on a firearm.
But I can't for the life of me ever remember such a rule as an FFL. I had my 01 FFL and had been doing gunsmithing since '71, but maybe missed that one.
The ATF form to request moving a factory Ser# on a frame I was very familiar with and used that a few timess at customers requests for engraving patterns.
Hamilton Bowen used to use the method when installing the swivel in the butt of handguns where the ser# would be drilled thru.
He mentions in his book that he stopped doing the modification after the ATF started denying the request on a regular basis.
Remember, Handguns were not REQUIRED to be ser#'d by manufacturers til Jan of 1958. Then the process began in July 1958.
(Along with Handguns, CF Rifles were included in the 1958 ruling).
However, IF a manufacturer did ser# ANY firearm that they made at any time previous or going forward, it has been a felony to alter, remove or obliterate that ser# since 1938 (Fed Firearms Act 1938)
Also felony to own, sell, transfer in any way or simply possess same.
Like the letter above shows,,it's pretty simply laid out.
I did that with a Panhead Harley engine I got in trade, I could tell the engine boss had been shaved and numbers were questionable. I took that part of the engine block down to the Stateys inspection office. They ran an acid test on it and sure enough double stamped. They asked me where the rest of the engine was, I told them that was all I had. I got the name of the original owner and another guy I knew was much more interested in the rest of the bike in my garage and claimed to know the owner. Between the two of them they sorted it out with the State and I ended up not totally shafted but sore anyway.
SGT ROCK 11B
Member
Was that Men's Jail or Women's Jail?
I liked working Overtime as a LEO. Especially in my youth but I prefer Patrol. So one weekend they needed a Deputy at the Women's Jail so I volunteered. My wife was so jealous because I told her I had forty (40) new girlfriends.
SGT ROCK 11B
Member
ATF Helps Get Bonnie and Clyde Pistol to Auction
ATF Helps Get Bonnie and Clyde Pistol to Auction | OutdoorHub
SGT ROCK 11B
Member
As discovered by Frank Hamer, this Colt .38 caliber Detective’s Special revolver had its serial number removed. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms has issued this firearm serial number ATF7620091 in accordance with ATF Directives in full compliance with Federal law. The serial number has been placed on the frame of the firearm as pictured below.
Bonnie Parker Colt Detective Special .38 revolver | RR Auction
Bonnie Parker Colt Detective Special .38 revolver | RR Auction
smoothshooter
Member
How would S & W be able to provide any detailed information without a serial number for reference ?
Model19man
Member
The serial number is also inside the side plate and it might still be.
Restamping the serial number on the butt likely would make the revolver legal to own again.
Similar threads
Latest posts
-
-
-
-
Can anybody identify this? Civil War?- Latest: MelvinWalker
-
-
-
-
-
Used blackhawk 44 mags not worth much anymore?- Latest: Eddie Southgate
-
-
-
