M41, failure to extract/eject

[leinster lad]

oops, just read your edit.

If the brass is not being positively drawn from the chamber, it is the extractor not grabbing the rim of the case properly.
Should be easy to fix

 

[leinster lad]

For clarity...

The chamber is part of the barrel, where the bullet is held before firing.

The breech / breech block is the piece of metal that holds the bullet in the chamber and also houses the firing pin and extractor.

 

[Rowlf]

... If I was rich I'd probably buy a super slow motion camera just to film the pistol's ejection. Know anyone who has one to spare??

There are high speed videos of a Hammerli X-esse cycling with different ammo at Karlslunde Sport Funktionstest The X-esse is the same basic action as a M41.

 

[Tom S.]

My cousin who is the original owner is still alive. I've received an excellent post on Rimfire Central by John Rainey suggesting that I use an ironing tool made by Tom Menck. Unfortunately Brownells is out of stock and I can't find another supplier. If anyone knows of one I would be grateful to hear from you.

I suspect the reason you can't find one is most smiths would use a .22 chamber reamer instead. If, and that's a big 'if', you have a bulge in chamber mouth from firing pin strikes, using a reamer for the first .03 of the chamber should remove it completely. I would not ream the whole chamber as I believe part of the 41's consistency comes from a tight chamber.

 

[Tom S.]

I don't think this problem should be addressed by trying to find a particular ammo that works better. The Model 41 manual only specifies long rifle ammo of good quality. It does not specify weight or velocity. A pistol that fails to perform within these stated boundaries is the source of the problem NOT the ammo. You don't go into a competition with a pistol that might jam. My goal is to correct whatever defect the pistol has. I also consider this a defect covered under warranty.

The history of the Model 41 goes back a long way, and shooters have always acknowledged that it was designed for .22 standard velocity. While that doesn't mean you can't shoot high velocity in the gun, what it does mean that doing so will eventually shorten it's life or cause problems. Similar situations are .38 caliber revolvers that shoot .38 special all day long, but self destruct on a steady diet of Plus P. Even some guns with Plus P rating warn against a steady diet of said ammo.

Since in another thread, you stated you have shot over 10,000 rounds through the gun, the next question concerns maintenance. Have you thoroughly stripped and cleaned the firearm? Also, given that number of rounds, I would strongly consider replacing both the recoil and hammer spring, even though you blew off that suggestion earlier. Springs don't last forever, especially ones approaching 50 years of age.

 

[DrakeOwens]

The history of the Model 41 goes back a long way, and shooters have always acknowledged that it was designed for .22 standard velocity. While that doesn't mean you can't shoot high velocity in the gun, what it does mean that doing so will eventually shorten it's life or cause problems. Similar situations are .38 caliber revolvers that shoot .38 special all day long, but self destruct on a steady diet of Plus P. Even some guns with Plus P rating warn against a steady diet of said ammo.

Since in another thread, you stated you have shot over 10,000 rounds through the gun, the next question concerns maintenance. Have you thoroughly stripped and cleaned the firearm? Also, given that number of rounds, I would strongly consider replacing both the recoil and hammer spring, even though you blew off that suggestion earlier. Springs don't last forever, especially ones approaching 50 years of age.

Hi Tom, thanks for your comments. I guess part of my confusion with SV and/or HV is that neither one is just one velocity and there is only a 75fps difference between the highest SV and the lowest HV. I don't claim to definitively know what the answer is but I'd really appreciate it if S&W would provide a statement to clarify the matter. After all they made the pistol, why can't they take five minutes to put the matter to rest once and for all? Drop the SV/HV and state a recommended velocity range such as 1080-1200fps. That's a 10% range. Frankly, S&W's silence is really starting to get up my nose.

As far as the second comment you made, I don't have the skill to completely disassemble my pistol though I field strip and clean after every session. I'd have to take it to a gunsmith and he would probably want to hold onto it for at least three weeks. The problem is that my gun club is going to lose its lease at the end of the year so I really want to get in as many sessions as I can before that happens. After that I do intend to take it in for a good professional overhaul. When I do take it to him I want to be able to precisely describe what issues I've had. The feedback I've gotten from you and others on this and other forums has provided me with knowledge of things I should do and look for before I take it in. In my profession if a patient can precisely describe their symptoms it makes my job a lot easier. Today I've got new ammo to try and a particular behavior to examine. I really appreciate all the help I've been getting. Thank you all.

 

[Tom S.]

Hi Tom, thanks for your comments. I guess part of my confusion with SV and/or HV is that neither one is just one velocity and there is only a 75fps difference between the highest SV and the lowest HV. I don't claim to definitively know what the answer is but I'd really appreciate it if S&W would provide a statement to clarify the matter. After all they made the pistol, why can't they take five minutes to put the matter to rest once and for all? Drop the SV/HV and state a recommended velocity range such as 1080-1200fps. That's a 10% range. Frankly, S&W's silence is really starting to get up my nose.

As far as the second comment you made, I don't have the skill to completely disassemble my pistol though I field strip and clean after every session. I'd have to take it to a gunsmith and he would probably want to hold onto it for at least three weeks. The problem is that my gun club is going to lose its lease at the end of the year so I really want to get in as many sessions as I can before that happens. After that I do intend to take it in for a good professional overhaul. When I do take it to him I want to be able to precisely describe what issues I've had. The feedback I've gotten from you and others on this and other forums has provided me with knowledge of things I should do and look for before I take it in. In my profession if a patient can precisely describe their symptoms it makes my job a lot easier. Today I've got new ammo to try and a particular behavior to examine. I really appreciate all the help I've been getting. Thank you all.

The accepted norm for SV is 1080, though there is some that's less, especially the sub sonic stuff meant for silenced weapons. I've tried some of the sub sonic and it wouldn't eject the casing, let alone pick up the next round. Blame the ammo companies for HV cocktails. In efforts to top one another, it became a foot race to see who could produce the highest velocity 22LR that wouldn't blow up 100+ year old guns. Some even went so far as to warn against usage in such weapons.

I believe if you research the history of the Model 41, it was designed to shoot in competitive matches, including the Olympics, most of which (perhaps all?) required the use of standard velocity ammo. If I was going to shoot much HV in either of my 41's, I would at a minimum add a recoil buffer to protect the frame, and consider adding a heavier recoil spring, if such an animal exists.

It sucks that you can't work on your own pistol. That's not meant to be a slam in anyway. Some people are mechanically adept and others have talents in other directions. I'm mechanically inclined, but can't draw a stick man without screwing it up. Both my sisters on the other hand paint very nice pictures in oil, but get confused on the "righty-tighty, lefty-loosey" thing. It's the luck of the gene pool draw. Still, if you told your local gunsmith what you wanted, and scheduled an appointment, you might be surprised. I would guesstimate a thorough cleaning to take around 45 minutes, and if you wanted the springs changed at the same time, maybe an extra 5 minutes, since the gun would already be disassembled. Even better would be if he let you watch, or instructed you on how to do it as you did it yourself. You know, the old "teach a man to fish thing".

 

[Gamecock]

Add me to the list; my M41 is a finicky eater.

I have settled into using the Federal HV Match (719). Last hundred rounds I fired worked without incident. Plenty accurate, too.

 

[Barrie]

I want to see you have fun with your new to you gun is why I keep saying go buy the CCI SV ammo and give it a try. Well how did it perform for you? There should have been a BIG difference in performance with that stuff as if that didn't do it then definitely change the springs in that gun.

 

[Waldo]

What ammo were you shooting in your m41 Waldo? Try the CCI-SV and let us know what happens please. I had two at our range recently that did not operate correctly either until I gave them 10 rounds each of CCI-SV which worked perfect for them. Now thats the only brand they use. Its the tight tolerances in them that causes them to do this. This is why they are usually sold out of it as it works so well in the m41 and m46 series guns. Here in Canada I have to buy 3-4 bricks at once just to have some in stock. Thats at $70.00 a brick no-less and I am on pension as well.

I tried some white box Aquila that I got from the CMP 9 or 10 years ago. I also tried some Federal Champion 36 grain HP, some Winchester 33 grain HP, and some Remington 36 grain HP. I am sure I have tried some other stuff over the years. It has never been reliable.
I will look around in the safe and see if I have any SV ammo.
.22 Ammo has been hard to find for the last few years. Mostly if I see it, I buy what they have.
I have at least 5 .22 semi auto guns, either rifles or pistols. I have never had this much trouble with any of them.
If the Model 41 is that picky, and cannot be made to run with a variety of ammo, I will be very disappointed.

 

[striking]

Mine functions very well with either CCI SV or Wolf Match Target.

It is finicky with other brands so I only feed it what it likes.

In return, it is really, really accurate.

 

[DrakeOwens]

I want to see you have fun with your new to you gun is why I keep saying go buy the CCI SV ammo and give it a try. Well how did it perform for you? There should have been a BIG difference in performance with that stuff as if that didn't do it then definitely change the springs in that gun.

Okay, okay...I got some CCI ammo yesterday, both the SV and the MiniMag and made a trip to a different range that was open to try it out. Nice range too. First, with the first shot I could tell that the MiniMag had too much for the 41. I could really feel the slide bang all the way back so I stopped using it after one magazine. On to the SV, I'd rate its performance on a par with the Automatch with a few but not many failure to extract and failure to eject. I wouldn't call these a stove pipe because they invariably with all ammo types end up sitting sideways on top of the next round. I clear them by ejecting the magazine, locking the slide back and using my range flag to push the spent casing out from right to left. The next round is still in the pistol despite my removing the magazine and will usually chamber when I pull the slide back and release it. I then reinsert the magazine and it's back to shooting. Certainly I can feel the difference in kick between the CCI SV and the Federal Automatch but it's a mild difference only. I only fired about a hundred of the SV and I've yet to bench test it for accuracy so I've still got a ways to go before I'll be ready to make a choice. Right now I'd call it a toss up. The SV gets the job done about the same as the Automatch with a bit less kick which is a good thing but is harder to get and a bit more expensive. Again it has about the same failure rate as the Automatch. Of note, I also was re testing the Federal Target ammo which has a stated muzzle velocity of only 10fps more than the CCI SV and it performed terribly with almost all rounds failing to extract. Also, I fire two handed and single handed with both my right and left hands and an instructor looked at my grips and didn't see any problems with a limp wrist. Thanks for the suggestions Barrie, they are always useful. I'll drop a comment on my accuracy tests when I do them Friday. I've got to say the Automatch is going to be tough to beat, it gave a 2" group at 15 yards with 20 rounds on a bench rest.

 

[Barrie]

Now we know that the CCI SV had a few stove pipes that tells me you are due for new springs. That would turn your pistol into a brand new gun very cheaply. Also in your next cleaning take the grips off as well and clean in there as well. You just might be amazed on how much dirt does get into the smallest of places on these guns. My 1958 m41 shoots the CCI SV like a dream after I put news springs in it. Its a cheap investment to do and will clear up a lot of your problems for sure. I also placed a new extractor in mine at the same time as it was badly worn and broken. The tip on it gets worn over time which can also cause some stovepipes in yours as well. Again I wish to hear that this gun is working great for you and you are enjoying it is all. Eventually you will find the CCI-SV will be the best food for your new toy.

 

[DrakeOwens]

Now we know that the CCI SV had a few stove pipes that tells me you are due for new springs. That would turn your pistol into a brand new gun very cheaply. Also in your next cleaning take the grips off as well and clean in there as well. You just might be amazed on how much dirt does get into the smallest of places on these guns. My 1958 m41 shoots the CCI SV like a dream after I put news springs in it. Its a cheap investment to do and will clear up a lot of your problems for sure. I also placed a new extractor in mine at the same time as it was badly worn and broken. The tip on it gets worn over time which can also cause some stovepipes in yours as well. Again I wish to hear that this gun is working great for you and you are enjoying it is all. Eventually you will find the CCI-SV will be the best food for your new toy.

Well Barrie, I went to the range this morning and the first thing is I bench tested the CCI SV and it's group was about half an inch better that the Automatch. Oh, shut up. The Automatch is still a lot easier to get and cheaper. Having said that, it's also true that the CCI SV is a true SV ammo and the Automatch isn't. I do find it surprising how the CCI SV performs well when all the other SV ammo I've tried has almost 100% failure to eject/extract. It's also weird that with both the Automatch and the CCI SV it's the first and sometimes the second round of the magazine that fails, all of the following rounds in the magazine always work fine.

I've never done more than routine cleaning on any firearm and the fine detail and experience of gunsmithing intimidates me. I've decide to order the parts and go from there. Can you tell me what I need to order and from whom?

 

[Barrie]

I would suggest Any of the larger dealers the one gentleman you have already spoken re: Parts also. My spelling is probably wrong but I think you know who I mean. "Numrich"They usually handle most of our parts. Both springs and a extractor installed or cleaned up I drove around 45 miles to a special dealer that I wanted to do the work. It was around $40.00-$50.00 including the part. Sure glad I did.

 

[Barrie]

One of the main reason for the ammo is CCI makes their ammo to tighter tolerances then most of the others. These guns are made with tighter tolerances Next time put one drop of oil on the 1st top cartridge in the mag just before you insert it into the gun. Let us know how that works with the M41 please.

 

[BruceB]

Remember that 50 years ago the .22 ammo world was quite different.

We had single-shot rifles, some semi-auto pistols, some tube-fed rifles, and what-not. It took a while to churn through a full brick of .22, back when Remington green box was the go-to ammo, unless you a very serious target shooter.

Now, you have every yahoo with their 10-22s, and all the AR-style semi auto rifles who arrive at the range with 10K rounds loaded in their hi-cap magazines and blow through that in 20 minutes. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that that the .22 ammo makers cater to that market, making the cheapest stuff they can.

You wonder why CCI SV is always sold out? Because it's better!

There's lots of suggestions here on getting your old M41 to work reliably. You have to get it back to original spec, and make sure 50 year old gunk isn't causing issues, then use quality ammo and adequate oil lube to keep it running. Make sure the extractor channel in the barrel is brushed clean, the extractor moves without binding, and replace those springs with new original equipment items. Oil the slide a bit more than you might want to, good old fashioned gun oil, nothing sticky. If you're used to the "2 drops will do" Glock regimen, it's not enough!

Remember, this is a 50 year old pistol, designed for the conditions in those days. My late 60s example was trouble-free for years. I put it up in the mid 80s, and when it came back out a few years ago, it was still good, but I did only use CCI SV. There's a long, sad story about my only attempt at using Mini-Mags, needless to say that only lasted less than 50 rounds.

Sorry for rambling. They are great old pistols, and you have to give it a chance to shine again.

 

[DrakeOwens]

I need to post pictures. I have 3 800x800 jpg images on my hard drive. How do I attach them to a post?

 

[DrakeOwens]

All right I think I've got this picture thing figured out, fingers crossed.

First picture, this image shows a small ripple on the loading ramp. Probably not relevant but should be polished off.



Second picture, this image shows that there is no visible damage to the chamber edge from dry firing.



Third picture. This is as they say the money shot. I cleaned the snot out of the chamber with a wire brush and using CCI SV unfired ammo(thanks Barrie!) I attempted to drop a round into the chamber, actually 10 rounds. They ALL failed to drop cleanly stopping between 2-5mm from the chamber face.



I don't know that fixing this will address the issue of failing to extract/eject but it certainly may and definitely needs to be fixed. I regard this as a first step, I know what the problem is and now I need to find things to fix, one issue at a time. I need to take my pistol to a VERY good gunsmith and have the chamber enlarged ever so slightly. Care will need to be taken to make sure that the widening is perfectly centered to the barrel. I'd love to take an empty unfired casing and do a drop test with that but I don't have the means to unseat the bullet without potentially warping the case. Any ideas? I've got plenty of time now, the gunsmith I want to use(Imbert and Smithers, San Mateo CA) won't even be in until the middle of next week.

 

[Tom S.]

You most likely have something in the chamber causing the ammo not to enter but....... and this is a really wild shot, did you happen to check the barrel and make sure it's not a .22 short? Just trying to rule out all possibilities!