Mag Small Rifle Primers In pistol loads???

[ryanjames170]

Well i got some mag small rifle primers today for a killer price and i was kinda wondering if i can use them in 38 Spl and 357 loads? i know i would have to reduce my charge but by how much with these?

 

[Cdog]

That and you may also have issues with reliability as many handguns don't hit the cap as hard as most rifles.

 

[Aticus]

If you can find a handgun load in any loading manual that shows using small rifle magnum primers then by all means use them. If not don't use.

You probably got them for a killer price because SR mag primer have a limited use.

 

[ryanjames170]

yeah i am not sure how well they would work but i guess if nothing else i can save them for when i get a 357 rifle though..

i know guys use the SR primers from time to time in 38 or 357 loads though

 

[MichiganScott]

I run CCI-450 primers in my AR's because they aren't all that sensitive and I burn ball powders.

Try and trade them. Too bad we have Lake Michigan between us.

 

[mtgianni]

If you can find a handgun load in any loading manual that shows using small rifle magnum primers then by all means use them. If not don't use.

You probably got them for a killer price because SR mag primer have a limited use.

327 Fed takes a sr primer as its psi rating is over 40K. A mag primer is useful with most ball powders. I have also had ruger blackhawk only 357 loads with SRM primers.

 

[ryanjames170]

so might be good to have them handy if i use H110 or 2400 powders perhaps??

 

[arjay]

Prime half a dozen cases and see if your gun will fire them.If that works,work up new loads.

 

[ryanjames170]

ok yeah i will have to give that a try as it would be nice to have a extra 1000 primers i can use

 

[Rule3]

A Small Rifle primer (CCI) has less energy than a Small Pistol primer. So they probably will not work as well in 357 loads that require a Magnum primer. I would guess they will work fine in regular pistol loads if you reduce the powder charge and your gun will ignite them.

 

[alwslate]

I don't think you have to reduce your charge weights at all. I tried a
few loads Saturday here in IN at a balmy 40 degrees or so to test for
primer effect. The gun was my 4" S&W md 28-2 357 mag. The load
was Win brass, 7.7 grs Hdg. Longshot powder and TV 158 gr cast SWC.
Velocity is avg. of five shots at about 12 ft from my Pro Chrono digital
chronograph. Primer; WSPM = 1205 fps, ES = 42fps. Federal 200 SPMP
= 1174 fps, ES = 71 fps. Win SR used for standard or mag loads, =
1198 fps, ES = 64 fps. Rem 7 1/2 a SRM primer = 1206 fps, ES = 32
fps. Also tried another load to test for primer effect with 2400 powder.
Same gun, brass and bullet. Load was 13.0 grs 2400 with Win SP std
primer = 1144 fps, ES = 130 fps, Second load was 12.2 grs 2400 with
WSPM mag primer = 1229 fps, ES = 27 fps, and that's why despite
all the dire warnings from the chicken littles I use magnum primers
with 2400.

 

[ryanjames170]

yeah i know a good crimp with Slow burn powder helps too.

thank you for the info though guys! much appreciated

 

[garbler]

I hope you guys don’t mind if I go on a bit about primers. As others have already mentioned one of the most obvious distinction with rifle v pistol primers is the hardness of the primer cup. The fact that a rifle firing pin hits so much harder than a conventional pistol or revolver makes it necessary to construct a rifle primer with a harder cup to prevent puncturing and gas blow back from a piercing one. Generally most rifle actions have firing pins with impact energy between 85 and as high as 150 oz on the old Springfield 1903’s. Where as most revolvers and pistols run from 38-52 ounces of firing pin impact energy. Of course those early military rifles were shooting Berdan primed ammo so this may have something to do with it. I cannot find any specific data on primer hardness comparisons between Berdan and Boxer primers. So cup hardness is one major difference between rifle and pistol primers.

There are other differences however between the two and it has to do with the performance of the primer to satisfactorily ignite a longer column of powder as is generally found in rifle cases. Though I cannot prove much here since technical information on primer performance is proprietary and therefore not available to guys like me I do know that primer strength is rated by ‘ brisance ‘ or the rate of explosive power. That in order to uniformly ignite a long column of let’s say 30-70 grains of generally slower burning rifle powder requires a longer and perhaps hotter flame than is necessary for a short pistol cases loaded with relatively fast burning powder. The rifle primer must have the ability to throw a hot flame up through the powder column and generate enough heat or ignition temperature to burn the powder efficiently. The magnum primers however are more powerful and I believe it was CCI ( I may be wrong here ) that developed these back in the late 50’s early 60’s. I know there weren’t any magnum primers in the mid or early 50’s that I ever heard of. Anyway it is my understanding that magnum primers were developed after a lot of complaints with the bigger mag cases and the availability of newer slower powders. The mag primers not only have more brisance but the flame and it’s duration is longer also. This combination therefore insures full ignition of heavy charges and harder to ignite powders. It also helped mitigate problems with extreme cold weather performance where primers and powder react poorly when really cold. The opposite is true when very hot also.

Rifle primers have this ability but this larger or longer flame and added brisance maybe , I say maybe , be detrimental to pistol cartridges. Too much of a primer explosion can prematurely start the bullet from the case mouth and in so doing prevent full pressure of even a full burn from developing. The bullet’s resistance is critical to pressure and performance and the reason that crimping is so critical for best results in many magnums or high volume cases. Obviously roll crimped bullets are anchored a lot more securely than taper crimped but nonetheless the power of the primer and the crimp can/will probably affect the burn and performance of a round. A good chronograph and the time and desire to test primers and loads using simple standard deviation formulas can give you plenty on insight on what is going on for those more scientifically inclined. I have done some of this in the past but honestly lacked the time, patience and money to follow through with it.

Ackley and Hatcher both talk about primers actually damaging powder kernels from explosive force and many wildcatters talk about too much primer for some cartridge designs and powder performance. When this occurs you get erratic pressure and a lot of funny or odd hits on the paper. From what I read too much primer can literally crush or pulverize some powders. Some powders are more frangible or easily broken up than others. However when this occurs the powder’s burning surface area ratio goes to hell and the whole recipe changes. You now have more smaller irregular shaped pieces of powder with more surface area that can burn faster and really push the pressures up. This is not good since powder manufacturers go to length to design and formulate their powders to achieve the correct burning rate. Balls have deterrent coatings that regulate and slow the rate of burn, while IMR stick or extruded powders have small holes through the middle for the purpose of increasing the amount of surface area available to the flame. In fact crushing powder in extreme compressed loads is generally not a good thing and I know with black powder it is most undesirable.

This is a very interesting subject and to my way of thinking a bit odd that we know so little about what really goes on in a case after the primer ignites. We can test barrel pressures and work up the right performance or pressure curve for almost every bullet and barrel length and have pretty much dialed in burning rates for our powders but we still don’t know what exactly happens in the case and how the primer’s flame or brisance reacts with different powders, brass shapes ( bottleneck v straight ) and the load or powder column. How many stories have you read about reduced power loads in big cases and ringed chambers but still nobody really know why ? And black powder which is something you would think we had figured out but apparently not. With more and more people looking for good accuracy both mid-range and long range with the new Sharps, High Walls and a lot of other single shot falling block types out there but we are wondering how did the old timers worked it out ? Once smokeless hit the scene it seems all the blackpowder knowledge was kind of forgotten.

Back to the subject. I think perhaps a rifle primer, especially a mag primer, with faster pistol powders and typical pistol bullets may create some problems that are hard to detect. I can see the bullet starting out of the case before a complete burn or a portion of the powder being burned and chased out of the chamber. Either way you would lose the pressure needed for good performance. Then again depending on the amount of powder and type with a hard roll crimp you may create a bit too much pressure. Can I prove it ? No but it appears the subject begs the question and its fun to think about

Regards

 

[kwselke]

The loads I'd need and use small rifle magnum primers for are .454 Casual and .223 with ball powder. I would use them for published loads that call for them. If it was a life or death situation and that was all I had, I'd use them to make a .38 Special or .357 Magnum load that did not call for them go bang. I'll experiment with what is published in various load books, I do not try to conduct the original research myself.

 

[Cdog]

The loads I'd need and use small rifle magnum primers for are .454 Casual and .223 with ball powder. I would use them for published loads that call for them. If it was a life or death situation and that was all I had, I'd use them to make a .38 Special or .357 Magnum load that did not call for them go bang. I'll experiment with what is published in various load books, I do not try to conduct the original research myself.

I'm betting there's nothing "Casual" about those .454 Casull loads?

Spell check takes the bite right out of some things. I couldn't resist!