Malfunction if fired in contact with target?

[kannonvaggon]

I was talking with some folks at a range yesterday.... and some of the BS was that : You can almost be sure that if you draw your striker fired pistol and actually place it against your adversary, it will fire one round and have a stoppage usually due to FTE.

Is this known to be true with a Shield type model or not? Not a big issue in any case but I'd like to know if it is indeed a very bad thing to have barrel contact in a close-quarters gunfight.

I think myself that it would be TRUE, and one should absolutely keep the muzzle from touching the adversary.

Just wondering.....

By the way, the Shield .45 is wearing in very nicely. My favorite of the Shield models for sure. Now my EDC of choice.

 

[Bonephish]

If it comes out of battery, it won't fire.

 

[gman51]

I guess that goes along with the thought that if a person could grasp tightly to the slide and keep the slide from moving then the gun would jam. Personally I wouldn't want to test that thought. There just might be at least one bullet chambered that would get to me.
Something to realize about the muzzle being up against the BG is that the slide doesn't move forward but backwards after fired. Then the slide moves forward. For that reason I wouldn't count on it not going back into battery even though it is possible.

 

[GUNs and JEEPS]

Is this kinda like trying to grab the wheel in a wheel gun so it won't fire? I mean yeah it could happen....and might be something to be "mindful" of...maybe I am confused, but is this a determining question for the choice of an EDC?

 

[murphydog]

Anything that pushes the slide from full lockup, or retards normal slide movement, has the potential to cause a click instead of a boom, or a stoppage. There is a recent new semi-auto named the Honor Guard that has an extended dust cover for this reason.

 

[Bonephish]

The moral of this story is don't stick your pistol in the bad guy's gut.

 

[gman51]

^^ I think that goes along with the 12 ft rule. Start firing before the BG gets that close to you for the muzzle to be in his gut.

 

[TAC]

The moral of this story is don't stick your pistol in the bad guy's gut.

And never get that close, if possible, regardless!

 

[MichiganScott]

Very possible that with a contact distance shot your gun will get covered with splashback with all kinds of goo and gore and jam.

Shouldn't matter. The rapidly expanding powder gases in the adversaries body cavity will make a second shot virtually unnecessary.

 

[Ranger514]

Good situational awareness is essential, but not foolproof. If it's a matter of real concern to you, get yourself a plastic training gun and practice handgun retention techniques with a buddy. I was taught retention techniques as part of my LEO training, and I'm sure there are many vids available online...some are more realistic than others, and I won't recommend one technique over another. One thing for sure: if it gets that down and dirty, you better be ready to fight to win, whatever it takes. Stay safe.

 

[gwpercle]

If you are worried about close contact shooting simply carry a revolver.....press the barrel as hard as you want to, it's still going to shoot. Keep pulling the trigger and it will keep shooting. Revolvers still have a place.
Gary

 

[Saudade]

If you're really concerned with this, get a J-Frame, SP101 or LCR.

Oops, typo!

 

[Rastoff]

Placing the muzzle of a gun directly against any object is bad. It could lead to a barrel obstruction. It could lead to an out of battery condition and just won't fire. It could put the gun in a place where it could be grabbed by the bad guy.

Depending on load, a slide can be held from moving after the gun is fired. The bigger the load, the more difficult this is. For example, average .45ACP will generate between 8-13lbs of force. I'm pretty sure I could hold that much weight.

The cylinder of a revolver is easily held from turning. This is easily demonstrated with an unloaded revolver. Hold the cylinder and try to pull the trigger. Hold the cylinder and try to cock the hammer. It's easy to prevent both with a reasonably firm grip.

 

[Mister X]

Any semi-auto's can experience a malfunction in ECQ(extreme close-quarter) scenarios. The muzzle can make contact with the assailant(not even intentionally)and the slide pushed out of battery, the attacker could grab the gun forcing it out of battery or stopping the movement of the slide causing a subsequent malfunction if a shot is able to be fired. The rearward movement of the slide could be obstructed(even accidentally by your own body) causing a malfunction. A revolver can be grabbed and the cylinder stopped from turning, but the weapon will function fine once it's cleared and in the case of a hammerless snubnose revolver, it's rather difficult to maintain a grip on the weapon. And it usually takes two hands from a dominant control(grappling) position to maintain the grip. Irregardless of what you carry, knowing the functionality of your weapon in these scenarios and learning close-quarter and weapon retention methods are very worthy skills to acquire. The idea that you can simply always avoid these situations by constant heightened awareness is simply not realistic.

If you search "Southnarc ECQC" on YouTube, you will see frequent malfunctions occuring with the Glock sim pistols during their ECQ evos.

Here's a real world example of a semi-auto malfunctioning during a close-quarter struggle.

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=23c7ovuSd2U[/ame]

 

[kannonvaggon]

Well .... This morning I was out in the sticks and sacrificed two large pumpkins as test subjects.

I put the muzzle of the Shield 45 hard against the pumpkin and fired, strong side hand only. The weapon fired , ejected, and fed another round. I tried to keep the muzzle up against the pumpkin but between the slight recoil and the pumpkin disintegration that didn' truly happen. I fired another round and the pistol again functioned and fed.

I tried another pumpkin, and got about the same performance. I backed off and emptied the mag destroying the poor pumpkins. Not a good expenditure of Gold Dots probably.

Anyways, the pistol did in fact function in this particular case of muzzle contact, but I wouldn't want to take odds on this being a good thing. Keep the muzzle away from the BG for a LOT of reasons. Sort of fun to repel the attacking pumpkins though.....

YMMV

 

[Mister X]

Well .... This morning I was out in the sticks and sacrificed two large pumpkins as test subjects.

I put the muzzle of the Shield 45 hard against the pumpkin and fired, strong side hand only. The weapon fired , ejected, and fed another round. I tried to keep the muzzle up against the pumpkin but between the slight recoil and the pumpkin disintegration that didn' truly happen. I fired another round and the pistol again functioned and fed.

I tried another pumpkin, and got about the same performance. I backed off and emptied the mag destroying the poor pumpkins. Not a good expenditure of Gold Dots probably.

Anyways, the pistol did in fact function in this particular case of muzzle contact, but I wouldn't want to take odds on this being a good thing. Keep the muzzle away from the BG for a LOT of reasons. Sort of fun to repel the attacking pumpkins though.....

YMMV

Unless the slide is pushed out battery, it will still function fine. If the muzzle has enough force against it, the gun will not fire. If the slide is stopped from cycling(either by being grabbed or it's rearward movement blocked in anyway or the ejection port covered), it will fire a shot and jam.

A pumpkin is lightweight and a fairly hard surface. Much different than a relatively soft 250 lb man crashing his mass into you or bearing his weight down on you in a ground scenario. The autoloader malfunctions commonly seen in ECQ FoF are not cases of intentionally pressing the muzzle into the attacker, it's just the reality and chaotic dynamics of these scenarios.

 

[Ksimons]

I am not saying it could happen but the only way I can see it is out of battery as others have said. My only scenario would be after the first shot and the muzzle held hard in as the slide went back the barrel must move up. If it can't it would be out of battery. Long shot at best.

 

[Woff]

The sig p320 will fire when pushed out. That was the only thing I liked about it other than the size.

 

[Mister X]

The cylinder of a revolver is easily held from turning. This is easily demonstrated with an unloaded revolver. Hold the cylinder and try to pull the trigger. Hold the cylinder and try to cock the hammer. It's easy to prevent both with a reasonably firm grip.

It's only easy in a static grab. It's extremely hard to secure and maintain a grip on a snub in a Force on Force drill against a resisting opponent. My LEO students and I have vetted it pretty thoroughly in ECQ with an old beater 442. That being said, it has happened on very rare occasions, but only where one guy achieved a dominant grappling control position(pinned or on the ground) first and had a two handed grip on the gun or one handed in combination with arm or wrist control.

 

[scattershot]

I heard a first hand account of this from a police officer. The contact pushed the gun out of battery, and it would not fire. I believe it was a Glock.

Seems the remedy would be to pull back an inch or so, but I've never been in that situation.

 

[Arik]

It's only easy in a static grab. It's extremely hard to secure and maintain a grip on a snub in a Force on Force drill against a resisting opponent. My LEO students and I have vetted it pretty thoroughly in ECQ with an old beater 442. That being said, it has happened on very rare occasions, but only where one guy achieved a dominant grappling control position(pinned or on the ground) first and had a two handed grip on the gun or one handed in combination with arm or wrist control.

Hard to vet it thoroughly when no one is actually fighting. Playing essentially tug of war doesn't count

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

 

[Mister X]

Hard to vet it thoroughly when no one is actually fighting. Playing essentially tug of war doesn't count

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

The topic was simply stopping a revolvers cylinder from rotating. My observations were during contact(geared up) ECQ and various weapon retention scenarios. What part do you view as being inadequate or unrealistic?

 

[manderle]

These are interesting videos Grabbing the Slide and Firing and Grabbing the Slide part 2

 

[WR Moore]

Those who say that if the muzzle is pressed firmly enough against the opponent to move it out of battery will prevent virtually all semis from firing are correct.

As are those who comment upon back splash possibly fouling the firearm. This also applies to revolvers, folks. If you haven't done it, you'll be surprised how far tissue and other substances can fly. Pumpkins don't count, there's no soft tissue for the gasses to strip away. Clothing can make a difference here.

Now about making sure the opponent never gets that close......I used to hold that opinion until life taught me that you sometimes don't control all variables. I also learned that when you're ramming the pistol into your opponent hard enough to be absolutely, positively sure that body isn't yours, a semi isn't going to fire. Note: in my case the assailant was a Rottweiler and I was under him.

 

[gman51]

I think as most of the comments have showed this thought that the gun will not function is more likely to be false than true.

Granted a revolver will not fire if the cylinder is held from turning. The hammer nor the trigger can move then. BUT and this is the big BUT...If the hammer is cocked then stopping the cylinder from turning will not stop the trigger from being pulled and dropping the hammer. I just proved that with my revolver. Now this would be different if the gun was single action only because then the cylinder does have to rotate to pull the trigger then. That there is a + for SA/DA guns.

The same thing with a semi auto. The first pull of the trigger even if the slide couldn't move but one is in the pipe and the gun is cocked then the gun is going to fire. The slide doesn't have to move to pull the trigger dropping the firing pin/hammer on a round in the pipe.

 

[TAC]

I think as most of the comments have showed this thought that the gun will not function is more likely to be false than true.

Granted a revolver will not fire if the cylinder is held from turning. The hammer nor the trigger can move then. BUT and this is the big BUT...

What if it's a BIG BIG BUTT?

 

[JonF]

This is why I carry other devices on my person
when pumping gas or helping load groceries.
Things happen very, very fast and not much time is
left for "thinking"
This from a guy who grew up on the
East side of Detroit in the 50's.

 

[Harkrader]

THe video posted by Mr. X advocates for a backup gun and a knife that is readily to hand.
I claim no expertise, only one training scenario. I was at Shootin' Iron in Oklahoma in the early '90s when a test was made using a manikin. THe shooter ran one arm under the manikin's and up to the back of its shoulder while shoving the gun into its gut and firing. No matter how hard the shooter pushed, the autos always fired the first shot. For some of us, it then failed to return to battery and therefore did not fire again without pushing the slide into battery. Some of us were able to continue firing.

I was using a Sig 228 and Sig 229/357Sig and could not make it malf. I'm not sure I remember correctly, but it seemed to me that 1911's and Glocks had the most trouble firing the second shot.

Presence of mind is difficult to maintain in a struggle for one's life. CAN a person remember to pull back an inch or so before firing? I never had to, and hope I never do.

"gman51" says he was under a dog when faced with the problem. Many years ago a neighbor's boxer, who I had know since it was a pup, left the owner's property and came onto ours. I was 16 years old. The dog savagely attacked me. I thrust my hands into its mouth, forcing my thumbs into is cheeks while desperately trying to stop it from biting my forearms. IF I had had a gun, I'm sure I would have almost had to have shoved the muzzle into the animal before pulling the trigger.

That attack has always stuck with me and has affected how I react to threatening dogs ever since. Shoot early and shoot first.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Is this kinda like trying to grab the wheel in a wheel gun so it won't fire? I mean yeah it could happen....and might be something to be "mindful" of...maybe I am confused, but is this a determining question for the choice of an EDC?

My father, as an LEO during an arrest of a suspect who fired a round during the struggle, prevented a revolver from firing again by grabbing the frame in both hands and preventing the cylinder from rotating . . .

 

[rwsmith]

Another thing that could happen....

It would fire, but if it were a 'rise to unlock' barrel configuration, keeping pressure on the barrel would probably interfere with the slides recoil and return.

This is just me thinking, but interferences happen at close range.