Malfunctions: Why you should stop shooting.

[JaPes]

This is a prime example of why you should stop shooting when you experience a malfunction on the range.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhgyJMhQFbA[/ame]
I can hear the light ignition. The shooter experiences multiple failure to fires most likely because the round won't chamber and go into full battery because of the squib stuck in the barrel. The dude doesn't stop, keeps on pushing his luck until his rifle blows up. Even after it blows up, the guy tries to insert a mag and chamber another round.

Unobservant. Oblivious. Ignorant.

There are many new AR-15 enthusiasts in the sub-forum. It's that time of the year: tax refund season. I want to stress to every new AR-15 enthusiast the importance of properly diagnosing a malfunction. Tap, rack, bang is a prudent combat remedy when in combat under live fire. Hopefully for us civilians, we're not on a two-way range where the targets shoot back at us. We have the luxury of shooting on a one-way range. If you experience a malfunction or your sixth sense tells you something is wrong, stop shooting. Take the time to fully inspect your rifle before shooting that next round.

 

[otisrush]

I'm glad you started this thread. That class of scenario simply scares the you-know-what out of me.

I try to be a very cautious, deliberate shooter. I'd like to think I'd stop and not just "slam home another round". And I think I would pause. I'm confident I would. It's deeply ingrained in me that guns are delicate instruments. If they're not working right the correct response is investigation - not "beat the hell out of it". But I'm old enough to know and be on guard enough to say "Never say never." We have to always be diligent. But that being said......

The round fired before his first "dry fire" sounding episode sounded perfectly normal to me. I don't see that he got a minor "Pfft".

I'm assuming (hoping) the tell-tale sign, always, is that the action doesn't cycle normally. If there's not enough pressure to cycle the action, then you need to look down the barrel and ensure it's clear.

Is there a scenario where the action would cycle and yet a squib is in the barrel? Maybe if the bullet makes it past the gas block but not out the muzzle? But even in that scenario (not enough pressure to eject the bullet) I'm hoping that also means there's not enough pressure to cycle the action.

Wow.......rambling post.....

Thanks.

OR

 

[ModernRifle]

It looks like the .30 caliber clip is also a pressure relief valve.

 

[tbgunner88]

These wannabe "tactical operators" never fail to amaze me with their ignorance.

 

[MichiganScott]

It is a 3-gun match, so there could have been a lot of money riding on the outcome. That being said, the dude went way past the point where he should have given up and declared the stage and match lost.

Sometimes old habits die hard, but this is another good reason not to hammer on the forward assist.

 

[sgtsandman]

3 gun match or not, I would have stopped to find out why the rifle malfunctioned. He was lucky that the magazine gave way like it did. It could have been the upper and in his face.

 

[Mcwsky09]

I dunno for sure when I would have stopped but after three clicks with no bang how do you not think something is seriously wrong here.
From the video it does not appear the guy was aware of what happened even after he stopped, only that his firearm was not operating normally.

 

[otisrush]

OK - I've watched it multiple times again. My belief: (Others chime in if I'm messed up here.) Up until the malfunction he was doing double-taps. So I assume when he gets into the van he goes to do a double-tap but only the first pull goes bang. I presume that bang was the squib and action didn't cycle. So he got a no-go on the 2nd pull of the double-tap. I wish we could see what came out of the action when he pulled the charging handle. I assume even further it was an empty case - which is from the first tap.

And if all of that is right - the fact an spent shell came out after the shot not cycling the action - THAT is the telltale sign of a big-time issue.

Is that the likely scenario here?

OR

 

[NEURON]

Caught up in the moment, highlights the need for training. I really wonder how many people in the same situation would do exactly the same thing, adrenaline can and does overtake us without proper training.

 

[sgtsandman]

I'm sure I would have tried to cycle it once but after that, nope. Time to find out what's up.

 

[Vulcan Bob]

I guess the RO figured he had to figure it out for himself but after it blew the mag out and the mushroom cloud he should have stopped him. Yeah it gets intense during a stage and once started you have a tendency to want to at least finish it. He did not appear to have been hurt so he can at least make it a learning moment.

 

[JaPes]

Here's a oldie but a goodie. The original video was just of the M&P 15-Sport blowing up on the range.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoZnCxqa4QA[/ame]

Then there is this video where the rifle owner shows the carnage. Never stating that a squib is the most likely cause of his rifle blowing up.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIuTVfl8G2U[/ame]

Yup. Tap, rack, kaboom.

 

[Maddmax]

I guess the RO figured he had to figure it out for himself but after it blew the mag out and the mushroom cloud he should have stopped him. Yeah it gets intense during a stage and once started you have a tendency to want to at least finish it. He did not appear to have been hurt so he can at least make it a learning moment.

Actually the RO should have called a cease fire and safety check after the second miss fire.

 

[Mcwsky09]

Actually the RO should have called a cease fire and safety check after the second miss fire.

That is what I am thinking.

1. It happens
2. Something might be wrong here
3. Something is definitely wrong here
4. Is your life and health insurance paid up?

 

[MuttX7]

I have a couple of new owner questions for you guys. I understand what a squib is but:
1.) do they mainly occur when people are shooting reloads or new ammo?
2.) If new ammo, is there any certain brand that is known to produce more squibs?

 

[happy1]

Most likely handload, caused by not checking the case for powder charge or full powder charge my only experience with factory ammo is a FTF that's not to say you can't get a squib load from the factory I've never had one of my reloads squib.... lots of FTF

Paul

 

[sgtsandman]

Another way to get a squib is if a cartridge gets dropped in water and sits there for a bit. Water can seep in between the bullet and the case of between the primer and the case and get the powder wet. So, if you see a bullet laying on the ground at the range and it looks like it's been there a while, leave it lay or throw it in the trash.

 

[MichiganScott]

I have a couple of new owner questions for you guys. I understand what a squib is but:
1.) do they mainly occur when people are shooting reloads or new ammo?
2.) If new ammo, is there any certain brand that is known to produce more squibs?

Virtually every kaboom I'm aware of was caused by handloads, and the biggest share of them were gun show handloads. Never shoot someone elses handloads. Develop your own procedures to guard against any possibilities that you may create your own defective ammunition.

I've loaded well over 100K cartridges since 1974 and have never even blown a primer. Handloads do not need to be a hazard.

 

[MuttX7]

Thanks for the responses. I thought it was probably hand loads that caused the problem. If it had been factory loads, you'd have heard of crazy lawsuits and there would be lawyer commercials on tv.

Thanks for all the info you guys share.

 

[happy1]

Hand loads are safe, I haven't bought any factory ammo in a very long time except maybe to get brass like I said I have never had one of my Master pieces squib on me. Hand loads can be very dangerous, thats why I only single stage reloading meaning one step at a time
1. decap primmer
2. tumble brass
3. clean brass in Ultra sonic bath
4. re prime brass
5. drop powder
6. make sure case is charged
7. seat bullet
8. crimp the round

I think that most squibs are caused by progressive reloading press' I have a progressive press but I only use it single stage I got it because it's a Turret press I only had to set up my dies one time.

Paul

 

[AGoyette]

If nothing else the RO should have stopped him when he blew out the mag. I too thought that the last real round sounded fine when it was shot. There are other reasons for the next round not going boom.. a firing pin that is bad is one example.. getting a bad batch of ammo? Gunk in the gun causing it to jam?
I basically just had the same issue Tues. night. Hammer falling no boom, failure to load the next round and not ejecting the round that was in there, etc. The RO (the husband) did not stop me. I have been having ammo issues. After that stage, we went to the safe area and took apart the gun. Numerous master, grand master, and A class shooters watched me shoot. None of them stopped me because they thought that there was an issue with the gun (an older 1911 45). After we took it apart, we wiped down the extractor (which I thought was totally gross, it was that dirty, but they said that it was not that bad), I checked and recleaned the firing pin chamber, relubed it and put it back together. It ran perfectly the next stage. I almost stopped because of the number of gun issues I was having with that stage. Lots of racking, dropping the mag, and reloading the gun, hammer falling and no boom, etc.
Like I said, the RO should have stopped him when he blew out the mag. I was not there, so I could not see if the rifle was going into battery or not. I do hear the hammer falling after he taps and racks..

 

[WR Moore]

I've seen maybe 7 ARs come apart. I'll also note I've seen factory ammo fail to fire/chamber, don't assume it's handloads at fault. In this particular case, the gent does watch what's coming out of the ejection port. Doesn't mean he really notices detail.

I noticed what appeared to be 1 or two possible strikes on the forward assist. BUT, after each attempt, he'd cycle the bolt. I believe the repeated chambering attempts pounded the stuck ball far enough forward to allow the carrier to close enough to allow the hammer to strike the firing pin and get ignition.

People who buy ARs should realize that the weapon can fire without the carrier being far enough forward to permit the full dwell time needed to allow chamber pressure to drop to safe levels and/or the chamber to fully support the case. The result is case failure. In point of fact, most of the AR booms I've seen have been the result of this. That doesn't appear to be the cause in this instance.

Moral of the story is that if you're not in combat or doing drills with dummy (inert) rounds in the magazine, after-at most-one tap/rack, you need to step back and see what may be causing the problem. I do have reservations about those who teach tap, rack, strike the forward assist.

 

[Rastoff]

So, if you see a bullet laying on the ground at the range and it looks like it's been there a while, leave it lay or throw it in the trash.

Every supposedly live round I find at the range get's the bullet pulled; no exceptions.

If nothing else the RO should have stopped him when he blew out the mag.

Yeah, if you watch it, the safety observer or timer, gets out of the way so the camera guy can film inside the van. I can maybe see them letting him go after multiple fail-to-fires, but after the mag gets spit out due to a ruptured case? They were clearly not watching for safety or didn't know what to look for. In either case they were running a very unsafe range.

 

[cyphertext]

Here's a oldie but a goodie. The original video was just of the M&P 15-Sport blowing up on the range.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoZnCxqa4QA

Then there is this video where the rifle owner shows the carnage. Never stating that a squib is the most likely cause of his rifle blowing up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIuTVfl8G2U

Yup. Tap, rack, kaboom.

I'm not sure that was a squib... the shot sounded normal and the brass ejected and hit the wall, same as the 5 previous shots...

Looks like an overcharged round to me... If that were the case, he wouldn't see anything even if he did stop and inspect the barrel for obstruction.

AR-15 KABOOM - The Firearm Blog

 

[NJM15]

I'm glad you started this thread. That class of scenario simply scares the you-know-what out of me.

I try to be a very cautious, deliberate shooter. I'd like to think I'd stop and not just "slam home another round". And I think I would pause. I'm confident I would. It's deeply ingrained in me that guns are delicate instruments. If they're not working right the correct response is investigation - not "beat the hell out of it". But I'm old enough to know and be on guard enough to say "Never say never." We have to always be diligent. But that being said......

The round fired before his first "dry fire" sounding episode sounded perfectly normal to me. I don't see that he got a minor "Pfft".

I'm assuming (hoping) the tell-tale sign, always, is that the action doesn't cycle normally. If there's not enough pressure to cycle the action, then you need to look down the barrel and ensure it's clear.

Is there a scenario where the action would cycle and yet a squib is in the barrel? Maybe if the bullet makes it past the gas block but not out the muzzle? But even in that scenario (not enough pressure to eject the bullet) I'm hoping that also means there's not enough pressure to cycle the action.

Wow.......rambling post.....

Thanks.

OR

At the range Thursday a fellow shooter had his Uberti SA 6" conv ,Colt/acp he fired off an overload scared the ----
out of me , I was next to him, the cylinder locked up
casings wouldn't eject He played with it and got the cylinder to
move drove the casings out with a punch, and started shooting again,
I said Charlie put that thing in the case and have it checked out and repaired, he said he thought the manufacturer would not honor his warranty because he was firing reloads I said they would have to prove it
in order to reject service. The hardhead said he was going to take it home and continue working on it !

 

[otisrush]

A few years back I found a YouTube video where a guy was was describing some supposedly-common issue with a pistol he owned. He said you needed to "beat the hell" out of the slide when it got stuck.

I found that to be all sorts of extremes: Hilarious. Scary. Stupid. Etc. I've never heard someone say that some activity associated with a gun required "beating the hell" out of it.

Some people.....................

 

[Rastoff]

I'm not sure that was a squib... the shot sounded normal and the brass ejected and hit the wall, same as the 5 previous shots...

I don't know. If you look at the 16 second mark, he pulls the trigger and seemingly nothing happens. I believe this is when the squib happened. He then pulls the charging handle and that's when you see the empty casing come out. It's the shot after that that destroys the gun.

This is just speculation from me. The sound on the video is not clear enough to make any determination.

 

[caribe]

Never had a squib in my rifles, I did have on in my M&P. It sounded like a low volume bottle opening. Knew right away what it was. In a way I was glad too experience it in a controlled environment. I was using factory Winchester white box.

 

[NJM15]

At the range Thursday a fellow shooter had his Uberti SA 6" conv ,Colt/acp he fired off an overload scared the ----
out of me , I was next to him, the cylinder locked up
casings wouldn't eject He played with it and got the cylinder to
move drove the casings out with a punch, and started shooting again,
I said Charlie put that thing in the case and have it checked out and repaired, he said he thought the manufacturer would not honor his warranty because he was firing reloads I said they would have to prove it
in order to reject service. The hardhead said he was going to take it home and continue working on it !

Up date, I received a call from my friend today
he did some fiddling (filing,sanding)with his revolver and took
it back to the range, well the result was a catastrophic
failure. It blew up , the cylinder shattered injuring his hand
pretty good, minor injury to another shooter three spots down.
Possibly had a crack in the cylinder from the first incident he failed to see. I never said I told you so, I really didn't have to.
He admitted the cause of the first incident was possibly an over load,
he said he doesn't trust the over 100 rounds he loaded and will break them down. He wont send the gun back for warranty, saying it would probably be denied.

 

[sgtsandman]

Up date, I received a call from my friend today
he did some fiddling (filing,sanding)with his revolver and took
it back to the range, well the result was a catastrophic
failure. It blew up , the cylinder shattered injuring his hand
pretty good, minor injury to another shooter three spots down.
Possibly had a crack in the cylinder from the first incident he failed to see. I never said I told you so, I really didn't have to.
He admitted the cause of the first incident was possibly an over load,
he said he doesn't trust the over 100 rounds he loaded and will break them down. He wont send the gun back for warranty, saying it would probably be denied.

Even though I'm not a reloader, even I know that there is a reason they specify certain loads and types of powder to use for that cartridge.