Maybe a bad purchase

I did shoot video of my results and will upload when I get a chance but here's what I came up with..

I removed the lead from a Federal Bulk round, removed the powder. Put the round fully in the chamber and slowly closed the bolt so the extractor would lock onto the rim. I then pulled the bolt back about 1/4 of an inch and used the end of the chamber flag to keep it open. I dropped the hammer. The round did not go off, but after I took the round out, it had the slightest firing pin impression on the rim.

So I repeated the above steps but this time used a dime to space the bolt back (a US Dime is 1.35mm in thickness) and dropped the hammer. Much to my suprise, the dang thing went off! I have the casing here and the actual firing pin impression that set this round off is so slight I can barely catch it with my fingernail and it's not even close to a "solid hit" but none the less, the round DID fire Out Of Battery.

So I'll take that plate of warm Crow now...

:D


outofbattery013.jpg


Video is processing, should be available in an hour or so... I must say I was a bit shocked the round went off. I honestly didn't think I would get the outcome of an Out Of Battery discharge. If this round would have had powder and a slug in it, I could see how it could unseat the bolt more, which would probably blow the side of the casing out and in the process extricate the extractor from the bolt.
 
Last edited:
Well that certainly got my eyebrow raised, Brett. It sure fits in with the letter to Gun Test that you had linked. No 'plate of crow' but rather a 'hats off' compliment here.
 
Phil,

It made my eyebrow raise too! In the first part of my video I am a bit Tongue In Cheek, but after the second test I was totally surprised! I had to re-upload the video because YouTube was fubar for the past couple of hours. It's uploading as we speak and should be available in 20 minutes.

Here's the video for your viewing pleasure!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRi_J0BP35w
 
Last edited:
I read somewhere that these rifles have controlled feed where the cartridge rim is held firmly against the face of the bolt by the extractor...and that the hammer can strike the firing pin even if the round isn't fully chambered... ;)

-- Chuck
 
I read somewhere that these rifles have controlled feed where the cartridge rim is held firmly against the face of the bolt by the extractor...and that the hammer can strike the firing pin even if the round isn't fully chambered... ;)

-- Chuck


The only reason I had it in my head that these rounds wouldn't fire was due to the hammer not striking the firing pin at a 90 degree since the bolt is spaced back, not in it's normal in battery position. But I guess that isn't the case, and the firing pin is sharp enough that even a light hit results in a detonation of the primer.
 
I read somewhere that these rifles have controlled feed where the cartridge rim is held firmly against the face of the bolt by the extractor...and that the hammer can strike the firing pin even if the round isn't fully chambered... ;)

-- Chuck

Yeah... I read that somewhere too...and something about polishing the chamber in an effort to reduce the possibilities of a round not fully chambering;) However, I was surprised to read that with the round chambered and the bolt a whopping quarter inch out of battery that the firing pin still strikes the rim. My other .22s will not do that. The trigger disengages well before.
 
Now the $64,000 question, will Smith do anything about it?

I have to believe they monitor these forums looking for feedback.
Thanks to your video Brett, it's pretty hard for them to ignore the problem now.
Good job
avery
 
It will take a major redesign of the rifle to eliminate this possibility.

The main culprit is the AR15 trigger parts. The trigger will release the hammer a full inch before the bolt is closed. It won't strike the firing pin, though, until the bolt is much closer to being closed -- a quarter inch doesn't surprise me (although I've not tested it).

In the M16/AR15 -- and M&P15-22 -- the bolt depresses the hammer far enough to engage the disconnector -- a distance farther than sear engagement. As the bolt closes about half way the bolt no longer holds the hammer down, just the disconnector. Release the trigger to release the disconnector and the sear engages. Pull the trigger and the hammer drops. All will happen long before the bolt closes in this design trigger.

The reason a "real" AR15 hammer has that notch on the top is to hang up on the bolt carrier in the event of a disconnector failure. (Shown here in a Bushmaster rifle.) AR15 function check requires easing the operating handle forward and pulling the trigger so the hammer drops. Should catch the bolt carrier and prevent closing.

IMG_2009_11_28_0068_s.JPG


It's possible I'd think to redesign the aft face of the bolt to prevent the hammer from striking the firing pin before the rifle is in battery. Note the M16/AR15 firing pin is too short to reach the primer until the bolt has rotated into battery and retracted into the bolt carrier. Hence there's no problem with this trigger/hammer in the full caliber design.

My Ruger MK3 pistol will fire maybe 1/16" out of battery. Different trigger/disconnector design.

-- Chuck
 
With the hammer being able to engage the firing pin while the bolt is so far out of battery... it is not surprising to see so many reports of OOB if the dang firing pin can be pushing the round into chamber from a quarter inch (+/-) out.
 
So how will we know if S&W even sees this? Did you call them and tell em about it and the video? What did they say?
 
So how will we know if S&W even sees this? Did you call them and tell em about it and the video? What did they say?

I have no intentions of calling them I just was curious to see if it would happen. If someone else wants to direct them to my video, feel free to do so.
 
its complete bs that this cant be easily fixed with a bolt that is slightly longer .... if the hammer cant get to the firing pin unless the bolt is all the way forward there is no oob..period.. there is no need for a special trigger.. the ruger 10/22 has very few oobs because of this fact.. this is just my .02 and i posted this before you made the video yesterday but the server crashed before it loaded.. my luck as usual.. this is a very fixable problem its just going to take someone above me to fix it...lol:rolleyes:
 
I doubt that there is anything in any Forum thread here that is news to S&W about their product.

That being said, I hope someone is a Gun Tests subscriber here and can tell us how/if S&W responds to the inquiry of OOB issues with the 15-22.

I mailed and faxed S&W regarding OOB issues back in January and have yet to get a response. I know others here did also. Wonder if anyone has got much from S&W other than a return shipping label regarding OOB issues?
 
its complete bs that this cant be easily fixed with a bolt that is slightly longer .... if the hammer cant get to the firing pin unless the bolt is all the way forward there is no oob..period.. there is no need for a special trigger.. the ruger 10/22 has very few oobs because of this fact.. this is just my .02 and i posted this before you made the video yesterday but the server crashed before it loaded.. my luck as usual.. this is a very fixable problem its just going to take someone above me to fix it...lol:rolleyes:

As usual.... Belt_Fed cuts through all the noise ;)

Now.... we just gotta get you up to Springfield....
 
I doubt that there is anything in any Forum thread here that is news to S&W about their product.

That being said, I hope someone is a Gun Tests subscriber here and can tell us how/if S&W responds to the inquiry of OOB issues with the 15-22.

I mailed and faxed S&W regarding OOB issues back in January and have yet to get a response. I know others here did also. Wonder if anyone has got much from S&W other than a return shipping label regarding OOB issues?

You would expect more from a company like S&W, but these days, beancounters run most of the companys.
They are just hoping it will go away, that is why they are not answering our emails.
Keep the emails going to Smith. It's either that, or it will take a serious injury and a very large lawsuit to get their attention.
Let's hope they do the right thing, and fix these great little rifles.
avery
 
It'd be interesting, now that I've seen Bret's video, if (1) the round will go off with two dimes gap; and (2) if the round will go off with the reduced "Blue" springs on the hammer. I'll see what I can come up with tonight.

-- Chuck
 
If the bolt is longer, that adds more weight and the spring would have to have less give to it but still be strong enough to push all that weight back to load the next round. I know that it the weight to the bolt wouldn't make too much of a difference.

Im not sure. I was just thinking. I should probably step outside so that the smoke detector doesnt go off:p
 
Last edited:
It'd be interesting, now that I've seen Bret's video, if (1) the round will go off with two dimes gap; and (2) if the round will go off with the reduced "Blue" springs on the hammer. I'll see what I can come up with tonight.

-- Chuck

Chuck,

I can certainly test 2 dimes worth of gap for you, I have the blue springs on my rifle (one of the first to report it here).

I don't feel like recording it, so I will just let you know if it OOB's with 2 dimes (2.7mm approx).
 
Love this site! Hello to everyone in the forum...I'm a first time poster, and somewhat of a newbie to the wonderful world of firearms...I just picked up my new MP 15 22, serial DTHxxxxx at my local GS. I cannot wait to take it out to the range and try it out...however, I must say that I am quite apprehensive. I just don't want to be disappointed, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, injured. The problems discussed here seem to be snowballing, and I am hesitant to even fire the thing until there is an "official" response or acknowledgement of the issue from S&W. I feel that the law of averages will eventually catch up and someone may be seriously injured - as some have already pointed out here.
If a company is lax and ignores emails and complaints from their customers, especially those concerning potential safety issues, at some point it time it will come back to bite them...The comparison may be a bit skewed, but look at what is happening to Toyota right now. I hope S&W get it right, and right soon.

The Rev.
 
Love this site! Hello to everyone in the forum...I'm a first time poster, and somewhat of a newbie to the wonderful world of firearms...I just picked up my new MP 15 22, serial DTHxxxxx at my local GS. I cannot wait to take it out to the range and try it out...however, I must say that I am quite apprehensive. I just don't want to be disappointed, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, injured. The problems discussed here seem to be snowballing, and I am hesitant to even fire the thing until there is an "official" response or acknowledgement of the issue from S&W. I feel that the law of averages will eventually catch up and someone may be seriously injured - as some have already pointed out here.
If a company is lax and ignores emails and complaints from their customers, especially those concerning potential safety issues, at some point it time it will come back to bite them...The comparison may be a bit skewed, but look at what is happening to Toyota right now. I hope S&W get it right, and right soon.

The Rev.

Hey Rev, welcome.

I have a DTH with around 14k rounds of Fed Value Pack through it. Picked it up last Oct. No problems.

This seems to work for many- Start off with a couple hundred CCI Mini-Mags (They are bit more robust and help to ensure the new rifle cycles). Then switch to Fed Bulk Pack and have a blast.

New rifles seem to fail pretty quick within a few hundred rounds or just keep on ticking for tens of thousands of rounds. If your rifle has ejection problems don't fight it. Either refer to the DIY ejector fix or send the rifle back to S&W.
 
Back
Top