Missouri Bullets Hi-Tek coating

[muddocktor]

shocker, what is your experience with casting, powder coating and Hi-Tek coating of cast bullets? I'm not trying to discredit your input about this in any way, BTW. I work in the oil drilling industry and we usually use Barium Sulfate as a fluid weighting agent and drilling fluids are my job. If the powder coatings do contain any amount of barite, which is the common name of Barium Sulfate, then you are absolutely correct about it being mildly abrasive. If you don't believe this, you really need to talk to someone who works with barite for a living. I don't know how many times we have had to change out butterfly valves in the dry product transport lines because the flapper is cut and washed from barite. Also, we need to regularly change out the hopper jets on both barite and chemical liquid mixing hoppers because they are washed out because of barite contained in the drilling fluid. These jets are generally made of tool steel and are probably harder than a pistol or rifle barrel. The point of this is,

1. Anything used as a coating or lube substitute on your cast bullet containing barite will erode your barrel, no way around it!
2.Barite is a mined compound, with a specific gravity of 4.0 - 4.5 and has an average hardness of 3.0 - 3.5 Mohs. What this means in layman's terms is that barite is a fancy, heavy type of dirt that is mildly abrasive. And being mildly abrasive, it will cause erosion in your barrels, forcing cones and such. There is no way to bypass the abrasiveness of barite as it is just a fact.

I don't know who came up with the idea of powder coating bullets, but he did a disservice to the shooting community if the powder coatings do indeed contain barite. The reason we use barite as a fluid weighting agent in the oil drilling industry have more to do with the fact that it is less abrasive or toxic than alternatives, relatively inexpensive, has a high specific gravity which allows us to make drilling fluids weighing higher than 18.0 pounds per gallon (water weighs 8.345 ppg) and doesn't react with other products chemically.

Now that I know that powder coating contains barite, there is no way in hell I will use them. And this is from a person who has 35+ years experience and usage of barite.

 

[shocker]

I'm a PhD chemist. I shoot cast bullets, that 's my experience. I quoted Dardas because alternative points of view can lead to learning and wisdom.

 

[muddocktor]

Thank you for replying, shocker. I'm no Chemist, but I have very extensive experience with using Barium Sulfate and my experience mirrors perfectly your description of what it will do. I've taken powdered barite and water and made a paste out of it and used it to smooth up the action of lockback knives, which worked well. Anyone that is using a powder coating containing barite should be looking forward to changing out barrel and cylinders on a regular basis.

BTW, the barite we use in drilling fluid is ground to a size between 84 microns and 50 microns for the most part.

 

[JBnTx]

Am I correct to assume that powder coating and the HI-Tek coating are two different things?

 

[ruggyh]

The main ingredient of powder coatings is Barium Sulfate. It is a fine white powder that has the same hardness as chalk and synthetic aluminum oxide.

Shooter

Don't know where you derived this information from but barium sulfate (Barite) is extremely soft, about 3.5 on mohs hardness scale and aluminum oxide (corundum) is 9+. A knife blade has hardness up to 5.5.


and

Barium is added to drill mud to weight it not for any abrasive it might have.

 

[muddocktor]

Am I correct to assume that powder coating and the HI-Tek coating are two different things?

From what I gathered, yes they are totally different.

 

[venomballistics]

Am I correct to assume that powder coating and the HI-Tek coating are two different things?

Yes, powder coat is a dry bake on process.
Ht is a two part fluid process with a bake involved to fuse and cure it's parts.
Both work to the same general effect.

 

[venomballistics]

Shooter

Don't know where you derived this information from but barium sulfate (Barite) is extremely soft, about 3.5 on mohs hardness scale and aluminum oxide (corundum) is 9+. A knife blade has hardness up to 5.5.

It's far from being the main ingredient at a 3% concentration per msds of one I don't use.
No one has reported a pooched barrel from it yet.
This point does make me curious about it's effects beyond the ground glass currently in our primers to begin with.
My primary powder coat is a Teflon type, which seems counterproductive to include an abrasive component.
It's not stopping anytime soon, so I will wait for failure reports while observing my own barrels as I already do.

 

[rwsmith]

This has gotten serious.....

Wow, this discussion has gotten really serious and is of consequence to anybody shooting coated bullets.

What are the types of coatings?

Are any of them really abrasive?

Which companies use what?

Which companies are or are not curing the coatings correctly?


All I have to contribute to this is that Bayou bullets has a very thin, slightly colored coating (I chose green. ). You can barely tell that they are colored) I have yet to try them.

What I'm trying to avoid is something like 'Moly' bullets which weren't what they were cracked out to be.

 

[muddocktor]

ruggyh, you are correct. The Barium Sulphate (called barite in the trade) is added for density control of the drilling fluids. That it is a low abrasive is just something we as an industry have to deal with. It is not added for it's abrasiveness. The drilling is actually done with purpose-designed bits of various kinds. Of the available density control alternatives that can be used, barite is by far the least problematic. Also used is hematite (Fe2O3), which is far more abrasive than barite and causes real problems with continued usage for all the fluid handling system and pumps and the other alternative is Galena, which is deadly toxic as it is lead sulfate and very high density, which would lead to settling and sag issues in the drilling fluid.

 

[venomballistics]

Wow, this discussion has gotten really serious and is of consequence to anybody shooting coated bullets.

What are the types of coatings?

Are any of them really abrasive?

Which companies use what?

Which companies are or are not curing the coatings correctly?


All I have to contribute to this is that Bayou bullets has a very thin, slightly colored coating (I chose green. ). You can barely tell that they are colored) I have yet to try them.

What I'm trying to avoid is something like 'Moly' bullets which weren't what they were cracked out to be.

Again ... good questions.

to say there are just two (Powder coat and HT) would not be accurate.
HT is its own thing, designed specifically for bullets.
Most of the com casters use this system.
Visually, it is a transparent coating offering a tint.

Powder coating is where the fun really starts.
PC variants number higher than I care to count.
Generally, these are a solid opaque color coat.

Within the powder coats, we have polyester, which is the usual brew most are talking about, Epoxy, which also sees some bullet usage, Teflon, which lends itself to the task perfectly, but is not legal in all states. Nylon, which we've seen before in Federals NyClad loads, and a host of others, many of which are obvious fails due to cure temps and composition such as ceramic.
Of those in use, none have shown any sign of accelerated barrel wear. In fact, this is the first I've heard of it, and this isn't past theory. so .. no useable PC is obviously and blatantly abrasive. I suppose one has to be the "Worst" ... we'll be waiting for a while to find which one earns that title. There have been no reports of this that I am aware of.

Looking at the HT system alone, you can bet that Bayou cures correctly, as they are also THE supplier of the coating to the rest of the com cast fraternity as well as the DIY set.
As for the rest ... I really have no idea who does what wrong.
I cast my own and almost never buy.

Is it anything like the great Moly flop ...
NO ... not even close.
These things, unlike moly, actually work, and work exceptionally well.
How and why it works, I cannot fully explain.
I guess some of the feats of coatings can be left to the notion of magic without harm.

 

[muddocktor]

Again venom, I'm not going to say that the PC will be killing barrel life, as I have no experience with it whatsoever. But what I am saying is that if the powder coating contains Barium Sulfate, it will have a certain amount of abrasiveness to the coating. That is because Barium Sulfate is a mild abrasive and this is born out seeing it in commercial usage. I have seen dry powdered barite wash out a bronze flapper on a butterfly valve in less than a week on the rigs and even with a stainless steel flapper it will eventually cut it. On the mixing systems and with the barite in solution in the drilling fluids, it will cut valves and wash out jets in a jet hopper. Not in 2 days or 2 weeks, but over the course of months to years it does it's damage.

From what I know and have experienced with barite, I know that I personally will never run any powder coated bullets through my guns unless it would be my only recourse. I would rather fun regular lubed lead and fight leading issues than run something potentially harmful through my firearms.

Just sayin..............

 

[ruggyh]

I think it way out of context to compare mixing flappers use in the oilfield to a barrel. The mixing valves see extremely large volumes of barite and additional percentages of silicates which are much more
abrasive in nature (and much harder). Since barite used in the drilling industry is a milled product it is usually only about 95% concentration.

It appears that barium sulfate is used to help produce a high solids spray that will not absorb / hold any of the volatile solvents used in the products. Barite is insistently inert and has a high melting point.

Barium sulfate is also used contrast xray studies of gastrointestinal system which patients drink it.

 

[Moonman]

Gentlemen,
We need to get back to the issue at hand, WE'RE NOT OIL WELL DRILLING.

If you use almost ANY MATERIAL, enough times, fast enough, it will prove to be ABRASIVE.

I CAST, SELF COAT with the HI-TEK formulas, presently I am coating with the NEW DRY POWDER MIX formula "Texas Tea", which is BLACK like oil. I also have used the dry mix "ZOMBIE GREEN".

I also have used com. cast from Bayou, & SNS Casting.

I purchased my LIQUID formula HI-TEK from Bayou,
and my DRY POWER HI-TEK (the color & catalyst are already mixed
in a dry powder form to which you add you own ACETONE) from Gateway Bullets. I prefer the dry power mix over the liquid mix,

I only do handgun bullets as I have no real rifle interests.

I've coated and shot THOUSANDS of projectiles, and I can truly say "I LOVE MY HI-TEK".

I also have no real experience with Conventional Electrostatic Type Powder Coatings,
but VenomBallistics does and he has spoken about them.

 

[Moe Mentum]

Wow , after reading all this, I think I will stick with my hard cast lead bullets.

 

[venomballistics]

Again venom, I'm not going to say that the PC will be killing barrel life, as I have no experience with it whatsoever. But what I am saying is that if the powder coating contains Barium Sulfate, it will have a certain amount of abrasiveness to the coating. That is because Barium Sulfate is a mild abrasive and this is born out seeing it in commercial usage. I have seen dry powdered barite wash out a bronze flapper on a butterfly valve in less than a week on the rigs and even with a stainless steel flapper it will eventually cut it. On the mixing systems and with the barite in solution in the drilling fluids, it will cut valves and wash out jets in a jet hopper. Not in 2 days or 2 weeks, but over the course of months to years it does it's damage.

From what I know and have experienced with barite, I know that I personally will never run any powder coated bullets through my guns unless it would be my only recourse. I would rather fun regular lubed lead and fight leading issues than run something potentially harmful through my firearms.

Just sayin..............

You do raise a point that does lead to a valid question or two, which I have found rare among those who have not tried it.

Question one being rate of wear.
is it significantly greater than what our normal shooting and cleaning cycles do to them?
I've shot up over half the rainbow worth and see nothing out of the ordinary. I guess Ill get back to this in about 10 years where this might show up.

the next question raised is ...
Is the offending substance in all powder coat formulations, to where it can be avoided?
I don't see why it has to be.

 

[1911Teacher]

Wow , after reading all this, I think I will stick with my hard cast lead bullets.

Great! More Bayou bullets for me!

 

[shocker]

One might ask

What are the "Pigment extenders"?
What are the "Fillers"?
In the coating.

 

[rwsmith]

It would be downright silly.....

It would be downright silly to even think that an abrasive compound would be good lube for bullets. Maybe we should add a little fine sand to the lubes we presently use to give it a little 'tooth'.

THESE ARE GREATLY INFORMATIVE ANSWERS, PEEPS.

 

[fredj338]

The info I just got from talking to Missouri Bullets on that Hi Tek coating is that they will shoot approx. 200 fps faster than regular cast of the same weight with the same loads, also smoke less, and no lead fouling. I ordered some and they have not arrived yet. I think this is a heck of a claim and can't wait to see the results.

Context? No, with identical loads they won't go 200fps faster. Yes there is still smoke, just not as much, depending on the powder.