Model 10 and + P Ammo

[Win]

I run plus P in my .38 all the time with no problems.... (sorry, I just couldn't help it)

 

[Bobwtn]

I am reluctant to carry +P 38's in something like an older pin barrel Model 37 J frame, or a Model 38 bodyguard. I have had both over the years. A friend of mine is a lic. dealer and he traded for mint Model 37 a few years ago and one day at the range, he ran just 5 +p 38 rounds through it. It cracked the frame under the barrel. I would suggest to anyone with a special J frame alloy frame to be careful if loading with +p. In my alloy frames from the pre-80's models, I never shot or carried +p. I did carry a 125 or 110 gr. hollowpoint and never did shoot the pistols much. I have others that I shoot more. The airweights are light and I view them as pocket guns. I tend to shoot a K frame more.

 

[mkk41]

I have no problems running a few cylinders full of +P thru my 2 Mod.37s every so often. I keep it loaded with one +P load or another. But it's just not a gun I like to shoot a lot , period. My xG/F carries my old one loaded with +P Glasers. I've seen tests where 500 or 1000 +P rounds are fired thru an aluminum framed gun and there was no change in cylinder/barrel gap or perceived 'looseness' of any kind.

And I've certainly never heard of a catastrophic blow up of a modern US made , quality aluminum-framed revolver (Colt or S&W) using +P ammo from a reputable manufacturer.

Some guys on another forum ever go as far as saying ya shouldn't use .38 +P in .357 K-frames fer crying out loud.

 

[Art Doc]

Once every couple thousand of guns an alloy J frame cracks. I think it's defective frames rather than hot ammo because +P is not hot. It is loaded well below maximum allowable pressure. If a gun breaks shooting +P the gun was defective.

 

[K.38]

Back in the mid '90's I was a contract security officer for the Federal Government. For the most part I worked in Social security offices or did baliff duty.
We were issued 4" M10's. Issue ammo was 158 gr LRN. It came from various manufactures, who ever was low bidder at the time I suspect. When the updated contract came out it stated that the ammo to be used was 125 gr SJHP +P. We were all very happy with the upgrade. The GSA required however that the revolvers be switched out for .357 magnums as the M10's would not be able to handle the +P ammo, in GSA's eyes anyway. We eagerly awaited our brand new .357's. I was expecting M65's myself, or maybe a 66 if I was lucky. The thought of a Ruger GP100 series crossed my mind, and I felt that would be acceptable. The day came and the cart came rolling into the classroom with brand new, still in the box Rossi .357's. My heart sank. I resigned shortly thereafter. The Rossis were not the only reason, but they were a big part of the decision.

Lucky Derby was that a private firm or did our gooberment buy the Rossi's?

 

[sjstill]

Originally posted by Lucky Derby:
Back in the mid '90's I was a contract security officer for the Federal Government.

My son currently is a contract security officer for the Feds here in Indy, and they are issued Ruger 4" GP 100's with Remington 110gr +P ammo.

*Supposed* to be transitioning to Glock 22's in April.

 

[bagolden]

I pulled out my Hornady manual from 1973 and here's what I found. I do not recognize some of the powders listed so I'll leave them out.

Using a Mod 14 with a 6" barrel.

110 gr 1200 fps
125 gr 1150 fps
158 gr 900 fps
148 gr wc 900 fps
158 gr lrn or lswc 1100 fps

Personally I don't carry a .38 spl. My primary carry guns are a tiny .380 or Gov't .45. So I doubt I'll be putting together any of the hotter .38 loads but it's nice to know that if I wanted to getting this kind of performance isn't really pushing the envelope.

 

[geoff40]

Some older manuals have loads even "hotter" than those. New on my bookshelf is a 1957 Lyman manual, its an eye opening book. One manual just recently released has maximum 45 Colt loads in it listed with a full grain less of Unique than the previous edition had listed. Why is the ammo industry doing this?
IMO its a behind the scenes movement to tone down ballistics, to make more ammo incapable of penetrating body armor.

 

[5_Shooter]

Good read and good info here.

 

[Centenniel]

Saxon Pig,

Thanks for the excellent information on 38 Special ammunition.

 

[Deltaboy]

Yea a friend of mine reloads and he has manuals going back to the 1930's when you compare them you see that loads have been cut down over the decades.

 

[44wheelman]

The "boring" I was referring to was the "shoulder"

Chamber & throats, w'trails, we know what you meant, someone was getting picky. The chambers were bored deeper to accommodate the longer 357 would be perfectly correct. You could even use a jig bore machine to do it, one like we have in our shop.

Mr Saxon, thank you, very informative, I think you proved your point. The only thing I can add is a warning. +P+ is not a Saami specification, and while the major ammo mfg's also keep it under the original pressure limits for the std. 38spl round, it is not mandatory for all mfg's to do so.

 

[Jack Flash]

Re: +P+
My belief is that when some departments had issued .357 Magnum revolvers in the '60s & '70s, they did not have to apologize for arming their officers with something powerful enough to stop a fight. But then in the '70s the word "magnum" became politiically incorrect, so police departments wanted to come up with something that would perform near magnum but levels in their .357s, without actually using such an odious word in its name.

Enter the +P+ .38 Special. It could be loaded to approach magnum ballistics since it was (at first anyway) LE ONLY, and each PD could strictly control what handguns it was issued for. Since there is no SAAMI spec on it, I would personally not shoot any of this stuff in a .38 Special, unless I had a lot of confidence in the maker and knew the pressure levels.

Re: loads published "then and now"
Some folks have observed that loading manuals have toned down their loads over the years. You're probably right if you say the CYA factor plays a role in this. I would just comment that powder burn rates change slightly from lot to lot, and naturally one might expect more significant changes over the course of decades. Thus, the Unique that they are talking about in a 1930s loading manual may be quite a bit different than the Unique you buy today. Just FWIW.

 

[whelenshooter]

When I asked a technician at Speer why there is such a difference between loading data in older reloading manuals and the current ones he told me it is because they didn't have a way of accurately measuring chamber pressure when the older manuals were written. He said that with modern pressure barrels and strain gauges, they were able to accurately measure chamber pressures. They then discovered that some of the old loads created much more pressure than they had originally estimated.

 

[Art Doc]

They have had the means to measure chamber pressure since at least WW II that I know for a fact and I suspect long before then.

 

[keggius]

Re: Federal Hydrashok .38spl 147gr +P+.

I contacted Federal about two years ago and asked about the pressures for this round. They sent the following reply:
"Max pressure (FCC) for this load is 22,800
We typically run 19,00-20,000 psi"