Model 15 in Vietnam
- Thread starter JP@AK
- Start date
will527
US Veteran
I was a loadmaster for many years, on cargo planes. We had older 2" victory models, plus a rack of about eight M-16's mounted on the bulkhead behind the flight crew cabin. Our Air police, now called Security Police did have model 15's.
SgtStone
US Veteran
Thai side note
As an Electronic Warfare RADAR tech stationed out of JUS-MAG 1972-1974 including follow-up visits up to 1975, we were prohibited from owning and carrying any and all firearms. Since we technically worked for the State Department, we couldn't even wear USAF uniforms. Thailand had strict gun ownership laws but the streets were awash with improvised and locally manufactured handguns based on available .22 cartridges.
If memory serves, the "Cobra" fired .22 short while the "King Cobra" fired .22 long a/o .22LR.
Luckily for us dis-armed airmen, the Thai ammo was either poor quality or possibly stolen from shooting arcades that utilized sintered bullets meant to shatter on impact. 'course the Cobras lacked much of a barrel so velocity was minimal. As late as the 1980's surgeons would remove tiny shards embedded in my back and shoulders. Street thugs would target farangs (foreigners) in a crowd, unload behind you & scurry away. I was hit twice that way, once with a slingshot -- the Thai version of Whammo's wrist rocket -- and never confronted an assailant.
We were allowed to import knives -- Buck knives were particularly cherished -- and SCUBA equipment but no handguns or ammunition. Back in the World so many RADAR techs carried folding Buck 110's it seemed as if USAF issued them.
As an Electronic Warfare RADAR tech stationed out of JUS-MAG 1972-1974 including follow-up visits up to 1975, we were prohibited from owning and carrying any and all firearms. Since we technically worked for the State Department, we couldn't even wear USAF uniforms. Thailand had strict gun ownership laws but the streets were awash with improvised and locally manufactured handguns based on available .22 cartridges.
If memory serves, the "Cobra" fired .22 short while the "King Cobra" fired .22 long a/o .22LR.
Luckily for us dis-armed airmen, the Thai ammo was either poor quality or possibly stolen from shooting arcades that utilized sintered bullets meant to shatter on impact. 'course the Cobras lacked much of a barrel so velocity was minimal. As late as the 1980's surgeons would remove tiny shards embedded in my back and shoulders. Street thugs would target farangs (foreigners) in a crowd, unload behind you & scurry away. I was hit twice that way, once with a slingshot -- the Thai version of Whammo's wrist rocket -- and never confronted an assailant.
We were allowed to import knives -- Buck knives were particularly cherished -- and SCUBA equipment but no handguns or ammunition. Back in the World so many RADAR techs carried folding Buck 110's it seemed as if USAF issued them.
Texas Star
US Veteran
Thanks for that info. It's interesting that we were there partly to protect Thailand, and they treated you that way!
Did you see Buck knives other than Model 110 folders? I know ground troops often bought the Models 119 Special and 120 General. Those were basically Bowie types. I have both and like them. I like their Model 105 Pathfinder, too. It's a good camp knife able to do double duty for defense, if need be. I got my first 105 in Denver in 1963 and had that and a Randall Model 3 and a Ben-Hibben Jungle Fighting Knife. I expected combat duty in Vietnam, but they sent me to Colorado, and then to Newfoundland!
You said SCUBA gear was okay. Could you carry a dive knife?
Where would you dive? The ocean has sharks and saltwater crocodiles and inland waters were probably filthy.
And Thailand and other SE Asian nations suffered a tremendous tsunami a few years ago. Model Petra Nemcova was badly injured and lost her fiance. Her recovery was said by her doctors to be a true miracle. I don't recall weather that bad during the Viet war, but the Monsoons alone were no fun.
I don't know which is worse: US forces fighting now in deserts and mountains or the jungle then.
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I still cringe when I see battle of Buldge and Korean War film
where the troops were stuck in that severe weather for days on
end. I thought it was bad to sit in a slit trench at night during
Monsoon. Night and day with no way to keep dry. Poncho didn't
help it was so wet there was no way to evade it. What was worse
was if you got winds off a Typhoon. Still better than sitting out
in sub zero & snow. I'd rather have trench foot than frost bite.
where the troops were stuck in that severe weather for days on
end. I thought it was bad to sit in a slit trench at night during
Monsoon. Night and day with no way to keep dry. Poncho didn't
help it was so wet there was no way to evade it. What was worse
was if you got winds off a Typhoon. Still better than sitting out
in sub zero & snow. I'd rather have trench foot than frost bite.
florange
Member
Just want to confirm JP@AK , Jack, comments " But I also appreciated having photographic evidence of something that has bothered me for a while, something I know by personal experience but lacked photo proof. This is the often stated, but erroneous, assertion that USAF pilots in the Vietnam Theater of Operations carried 2" Model 15s (generally if not exclusively). It simply isn't true. I saw far more 4" guns than 2" examples in my two years over there. I never once so much as held a 2" Combat Masterpiece while in the theater."
As a USAF Supply Office out of Udorn, 68/69, (432nd TAC Fighter/Recon Wing) the vast majority of issued guns to flight crews was the Model 15, 4 inch. ( Be it F4, RF4, C130, EC121, F102, HH53 AC47 etc.) We had quite a few 1911 in stock but most were "rattle cans" from days gone buy. Primary areas of operation were North Vietnam and Laos
As to Air America, HQ at Udorn,... folks have to understand that that was a TOTALLY different world...when it came to EVERYTHING.
Woops, Forgot that I was in places that I never was...
As a USAF Supply Office out of Udorn, 68/69, (432nd TAC Fighter/Recon Wing) the vast majority of issued guns to flight crews was the Model 15, 4 inch. ( Be it F4, RF4, C130, EC121, F102, HH53 AC47 etc.) We had quite a few 1911 in stock but most were "rattle cans" from days gone buy. Primary areas of operation were North Vietnam and Laos
As to Air America, HQ at Udorn,... folks have to understand that that was a TOTALLY different world...when it came to EVERYTHING.
Woops, Forgot that I was in places that I never was...
SgtStone
US Veteran
Thanks for that info. It's interesting that we were there partly to protect Thailand, and they treated you that way!
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Most Thais I worked and lived among were friendly and welcoming, even after years of warfare in neighboring countries, as long as one respected local customs. Many young Thais study at monasteries for a few years as did I as a youngster, albeit run by different religions. Most conflicts I witnessed between locals and farangs involved lack of sobriety coupled with ignorance.
My Thai landlord, a retired RTAF and police captain, figured the shootings were perpetrated by ethnic criminal gangs. The violence got so bad that King Buhmipol declared all (American) service-people as protected honorary Thai citizens and set our status at what State described as "upper middle class" so that the average Thai would know how to relate though we could not own property, etc. Note that Thailand ended slavery roughly the same time as the USA, and Thai culture is still adjusting.
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Did you see Buck knives other than Model 110 folders? I know ground troops often bought the Models 119 Special and 120 General. Those were basically Bowie types. I have both and like them. I like their Model 105 Pathfinder, too. It's a good camp knife able to do double duty for defense, if need be. I got my first 105 in Denver in 1963 and had that and a Randall Model 3 and a Ben-Hibben Jungle Fighting Knife. I expected combat duty in Vietnam, but they sent me to Colorado, and then to Newfoundland!
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Sounds like good assignments.
I owned a pair of Buck Bowie knifes but never carried them. I mostly carried small folders or stopped at corner hardware stores and bought Thai case knives when needed on travel.
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You said SCUBA gear was okay. Could you carry a dive knife?
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I still own a great Seamco dive knife but it's conspicuous for carry. I had a pair but my late wife "borrowed" one one dark night.
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Where would you dive? The ocean has sharks and saltwater crocodiles and inland waters were probably filthy.
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I learned to SCUBA and snorkel in the Gulf of Thailand. The water IS murky but warm. I saw sharks and other predators every time I dove but rarely had a problem unless some fool tourist cut themselves on coral. Then it was like "paddle to shore!". At the time I carried a large steel USAF-issued screwdriver while diving to -- uh -- shoo away smaller sharks.
Never saw crocs in real life although I once spotted what appeared to be a young tiger in tall grass while I was swimming around one of the larger islands (Goh Lahn ?). I met and even socialized (on shore) with Thai pirates a few times. Stone criminals but even they observed custom.
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And Thailand and other SE Asian nations suffered a tremendous tsunami a few years ago. Model Petra Nemcova was badly injured and lost her fiance. Her recovery was said by her doctors to be a true miracle. I don't recall weather that bad during the Viet war, but the Monsoons alone were no fun.
I don't know which is worse: US forces fighting now in deserts and mountains or the jungle then.
A veteran war correspondent once noted that wars are mostly about weather. Southern Thailand experienced massive floods during the 1973 wet monsoon but I was more concerned with local politics. During one coup, Thai army units attacked protesters near the palace -- gunships against T-shirts, vectored in by (self-censored).
Seven High
Member
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Did any of you Viet Nam veterans ever see a troop carrying a Smith & Wesson model 60 38 spl in stainless steel? In the late sixties they were impossible to locate supposedly due to all production going to Viet Nam.
THE PILGRIM
Member
I had a 60 and left it at my Mothers house.
My brother swung by and shot all my guns including the 60.
As I have posted several times, I took my 19 to Thailand.
Don’t recall seeing any 60s there.
My brother swung by and shot all my guns including the 60.
As I have posted several times, I took my 19 to Thailand.
Don’t recall seeing any 60s there.
OP
No. I don't recall ever seeing one. That doesn't mean they weren't there. It was a big theater with dozens of thousands of guys in it.
Well, maybe. But I'm not aware of any large procurement of that model by any of the services. I knew Navy guys in the riverine service - perhaps some of them had stainless revolvers. I can't say I know one way or the other.
By the way, the riverine Navy guys did have some Model 39 pistols that the government procured for them. One of my friends carried one on at least one of his three tours over there. Sadly, he passed away a few years back.
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SgtStone
US Veteran
Yes. Before flying to my duty station in Thailand 1972, I bunked for a week in Viet Nam with mixed forces, mainly chopper pilots. Two dudes carried stainless steel Model 60's in .38 special. Believe they were personal weapons but GI ammo.
Back in the World stationed at Nellis AFB but TDY near Caliente NV, I special ordered a SS Model 60 at the LGS. By the time the revolver arrived at the LGS, I was TDY outside Tonopah. Borrowed a friend's Datsun 240-Z and practically flew across Nevada to pick it up. Think it cost ~$150 USD circa 1975.
Most accurate handgun I've owned, a joy to shoot, low maintenance. S&W at its finest IMO.
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OP
Those Z cars were fun to drive - especially in Nevada with no speed limits on the open highway. For a while after the war, I worked at a Datsun dealership as a mechanic. Drove a few Z cars.
I wasn't near any bomber or fighter crews. The few Stub noses
I saw weren't issue. Never recall seeing a 60 or 15 stub nose.
Chopper pilots carried allkinds of weapons. Saw quite a few
M19 4" and a few 29s. I think chopper pilots and c130 crews
were more concerned that they might need a serious weapon
than bomber pilots.
Texas Star
US Veteran
Author Leroy Thompson had a Model 60, privately procured. He's written about it.
He commanded a unit of Combat Air Police, who differed from the usual base defense guys in that they actively sought enemy in the jungles, attacking them before they reached US air bases.
Although he seldom posts, he's a member here, and may comment further if he sees this post.
SOME M-60's went to Vietnam, but I don't know if any were official issues. The problem with all stainless handguns ca. 1970-80 was that most went to police forces or individual officers who ordered on official letterheads, certifying that the guns were for official duty use. They got shipping priority. This naturally limited the number of guns reaching stores.
It is true that production of Model 10 for the Army (mostly) and for the USAF (Model 15, mostly) did in fact use much of S&W's production time and resources
I was especially bitter to see an occasional .38 Terrier or .32 Hand Ejector reach shops, as that gun could have been a more desirable M-36! Given the quality problems common at S&W then, I often had to examine maybe ten guns of the model I wanted before I found a fully satisfactory example. The main problem was poor cylinder timing. Military or police armorers could fix that, but the civilian gun buyer had to pay for a gunsmith or return the gun to S&W and request that timing be re-set to proper levels.
Many police forces were pretty disgusted by QC issues and that gave Ruger a strong entry to that market as their Security-Six guns reached the marketplace. It also resulted in foreign firms getting a lot of business as forces eventually transitioned to auto pistols.
He commanded a unit of Combat Air Police, who differed from the usual base defense guys in that they actively sought enemy in the jungles, attacking them before they reached US air bases.
Although he seldom posts, he's a member here, and may comment further if he sees this post.
SOME M-60's went to Vietnam, but I don't know if any were official issues. The problem with all stainless handguns ca. 1970-80 was that most went to police forces or individual officers who ordered on official letterheads, certifying that the guns were for official duty use. They got shipping priority. This naturally limited the number of guns reaching stores.
It is true that production of Model 10 for the Army (mostly) and for the USAF (Model 15, mostly) did in fact use much of S&W's production time and resources
I was especially bitter to see an occasional .38 Terrier or .32 Hand Ejector reach shops, as that gun could have been a more desirable M-36! Given the quality problems common at S&W then, I often had to examine maybe ten guns of the model I wanted before I found a fully satisfactory example. The main problem was poor cylinder timing. Military or police armorers could fix that, but the civilian gun buyer had to pay for a gunsmith or return the gun to S&W and request that timing be re-set to proper levels.
Many police forces were pretty disgusted by QC issues and that gave Ruger a strong entry to that market as their Security-Six guns reached the marketplace. It also resulted in foreign firms getting a lot of business as forces eventually transitioned to auto pistols.
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I agree that the M13's were likely gone by then. They had "issues". I speculate that maybe he obtained that holster in it's natural state and finished it himself. Kinda like my dad getting WW2 style brown boots in basic in the early 60's but having to dye them black. I was wondering about the vest, what a strange color? But the date you give makes sense since it's probably canvas vs. sage green nomex.
THE PILGRIM
Member
These guys went TDY (Temporary Duty) directly from Wichita to Thailand.
So the revolver and holster would be what’s in the gun room in Wichita or personal.
The vest is described as a modified leftover Korean era issue.
I did get an email from Gary, he don’t recall anything about the gun or holster.
The standard AF holster of that era for the Model 10 type Revolvers was Black.
Somebody posted above that he saw Brown ones, I never did.
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