Model 1902 1st change. Is This The Correct Box?

[AC Man]

Sorry, no pics I pick it up Thursday. It is a 38 special 1903-1904 production round butt hard rubber grips. It has a maroon box. It says square butt on the box but "square" is blocked out and it looks like it may have come that way. They started offering the gun in round or square butt during my serial number

Seller said the factory would do this just depending on what boxes were on hand. He does specialize in older revolvers What say you? Did they at least have the maroon box at that time? Thanks!

 

[AC Man]

Ok guys, just following up. Does anyone know what the box looked like that came with the 1902 S&W 38 special?

 

[Wiregrassguy]

There are pictures of Early Hinged-lid Hand Ejector boxes from that era in the Standard Catalog of S&W, 4th Edition, page 52. You might want to compare your box to them.

 

[Truckman]

There are pictures of Early Hinged-lid Hand Ejector boxes from that era in the Standard Catalog of S&W, 4th Edition, page 52. You might want to compare your box to them.

The only one I can offer is this one for a Model of 1903 2nd Change circa 1909......Ben

 

[rct269]

I had THE box for a .44 H.E. 2nd Target----maroon/hinged---was told it was the same for the 1st. Before that I don't know diddly---except for the fact S&W used up old stuff before any new stuff was allowed on the premises.(!!)

As a complete aside, they did the same thing with the "Large Screw Spring Up" rear sight-----a total rolling disaster!! It came to be in 1911---and it stayed until 1923 (+/-)---because it took that long to use up the stock of sights on hand. It perhaps took that long because (so I'm told) the typical 10% of any given model made/sold as targets shrank to 2% during those years.

Win some, lose some!!----but don't be spending any money on new stuff until the old stuff is gone----or else!!---no matter what!!

HMMMMMMMMMMMMM??!!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[glowe]

Here is something that might help, just download the pdf file. Just about all boxes had serial numbers penciled on the bottom of the box. A 1903 or 1904 gun only had a round butt, and the first square butt revolvers were not made until serial number 58,000. Bottom line is that a box could not say square butt until 1905 at the earliest.

Let me add that if the top lid had "SQUARE BUTT" label, they did not start until about 1910.

 

[AC Man]

Here is something that might help, just download the pdf file. Just about all boxes had serial numbers penciled on the bottom of the box. A 1903 or 1904 gun only had a round butt, and the first square butt revolvers were not made until serial number 85,000. Bottom line is that a box could not say square butt until 1905 at the earliest.

Let me add that if the top lid had "SQUARE BUTT" label, they did not start until about 1910.

Thank you very much! The center box is exactly the one I have.

 

[rct269]

I don't know doodly squat about these boxes, but some about what came in them. Here's what's what about a gun that came in a box: Then again, maybe it didn't!

1902 First Change Target, #59794, shipped February 26, 1906-----with a square butt.

As an aside which may shed some light on all this, one of our more knowledgeable members, even before he became the current Historian, SNAPPED this sucker up during the liquidation of my collection, and wasn't the least bit shy about paying a fairly fancy price for it----and later commented to the effect he considered it to be a Club Gun.

The letter has some several more comments over and above the normal which may shed some additional light. For openers, the gun wasn't shipped anywhere, it was "delivered to Edward H. Burton in the S&W Factory Shop"---maybe in a box---maybe not. More of interest from the letter: "This revolver is in the serial range for a round butt rather than a square butt. It certainly was shipped after the square butt model had been introduced. It would lead to speculation if Mr. Burton was involved in the design of the square butt."

As yet another aside, this is one of the two 1902 targets I spoke of recently----noting I'd bought both of them at an SWCA annual meeting way back when (Dallas maybe) for $6-800---for the pair---and noting further they sold during the liquidation for A BUNCH more---$2265 for this one, and $2750 for the earlier one.

So that's what's what---to either add to the mystery, or help solve it----"It don't make me no never mind, nohow!"

Ralph Tremaine

 

[glowe]

Gary

Did you mean 58000, instead of 85000? 58000 is the first .38 square butt revolver.

Mike

Yup - corrected.

 

[AC Man]

Here is something that might help, just download the pdf file. Just about all boxes had serial numbers penciled on the bottom of the box. A 1903 or 1904 gun only had a round butt, and the first square butt revolvers were not made until serial number 58,000. Bottom line is that a box could not say square butt until 1905 at the earliest.

Let me add that if the top lid had "SQUARE BUTT" label, they did not start until about 1910.

One thing I don't understand is in the S&W book, it says the square butt was introduced between 1903-1904 so why does your post say the square butt box did not exist till 1910?

 

[glowe]

Using collector speak, the square butt was not introduced until 1905. Before that all revolvers were 4 screw and are called Model 1902 no matter whether they had round butts or square butts. The engineering change that added the 5th screw was the cylinder stop with that external screw placed in front of the trigger guard.

From what I can determine, the square butt 4 screw revolver started manufacture in 1904, but only a very few of those guns were shipped that year. The square butt was clearly an engineering change, but not picked up by the conventional naming convention. The 1905 was not named for the square butt either, but rather the rebound slide introduction. There are records of a 4 screw selling as late as 1907. All quite confusing.

The company was selling square butt revolvers in 1905 on, but still using the older box and the 4 screw model was interspersed with the 5 screw model. I have seen early boxes marked "SB" or "S" on the bottom or on the end label. I have never ran across a "SQUARE BUTT" label until 1910, maybe placed at the request of commercial buyers?? I have never seen a box labeled "ROUND BUTT", and they seem to have used the older style label for them, or just decided they did not need that label since most of their early Model 1905 production were round butt guns.

By the 5th Style box, called the clamshell box or patent box, they put the butt configuration on the main label.

 

[dobk63]

Box for my 1902.

 

[daddio202]

This thread needs a picture of a gun, as luck would have it, I had my 1902 2nd model from 1903 out for some daylight yesterday.

 

[Truckman]

This thread needs a picture of a gun, as luck would have it, I had my 1902 2nd model from 1903 out for some daylight yesterday.

Don't forget the sunscreen......Ben