Model 1905 Hand-Ejector 4th Change .32 WCF

[LaVistaBill]

I was in my LGS last Monday and spied 3 used revolvers in a display case. One was a K-frame S&W in great shape, so I asked to see it. It looked me me to be a Model 1905, H-E, 4th Change and it was chambered in .32-20 Winchester. The counter man said they hadn't ben able to sell it due to the odd caliber. It's finish was blue and at least NRA Very Good Condition, the grips looked brand new, and it had a 5" barrel. The price tag said $300.00 and I told the counter man that it was his lucky day that I wanted this sixgun. It came with a vintage box of Winchester ammo, there was 28 rounds in the box. Doing some research when I got home, the 141XXX serial number indicated that it was made in late 1937 or early 1938. The .32-20 version was discontinued in 1938 in the 144XXX serial number range. I think I got a bargain!

 

[DWalt]

Actual production of the .32-20 M&P (it is not a model of 1905) ceased around 1929-30, but they were sold out of inventory for another ten years. It is possible yours may have shipped in the 1930s or maybe even later. The last SN was indeed around 144xxx, so yours is likely of late 1920s production. Your ammunition is probably from the mid to late 1940s. Being a full box, I would not fire it as it has collectible value.
Nonetheless, you got a great deal. But ammunition is difficult to come by these days, as are reloadable cases. See https://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/694084-search-32-20-ammunition.html#post141920489. Things have not changed.

 

[Model19man]

Looks like a great deal!!!!

The Winchester 32 WCF 100 grain Lead RNFP ammunition was in stock at Midway USA last week but they quickly sold out. I bought two boxes at $71.50 plus hazmat and taxes - high priced stuff.

 

[dwh]

That's great find for $300. Ammo is a little tough to find. It's a great cartridge if you reload. Enjoy!!!

 

[fleabus101]

Very Very nice pick up at that amount. It looks in orig condition
and the nice era grips are a bonus to have. You might want to look on the back side
of the usually right grip and see if the are serial numbered to the gun in pencil.
Sometimes it's hard to make out the faded marked ser numbers.
That would be nice plus if it's all ser numbered together..
You did very well on it..

 

[Muley Gil]

That is a nice looking .32-20! You done REAL GOOD for $300!

 

[Cotis]

Awesome find, I would have bought it in a millisecond especially given its condition. The grips are gorgeous. Thank you for sharing!

 

[gmborkovic]

Great snag for $300. I dont see a full box of 50 cartridges. I see only 25 in a nice box.

 

[handejector]

Actual production of the .32-20 M&P (it is not a model of 1905) ceased around 1929-30, but they were sold out of inventory for another ten years.

I keep wondering where that data comes from. I do agree this is a 20s gun, but some were built in the 30s.
I have seen a 32/20 that was new in the original box and wearing matching silver medallion grips.
I also own this pair of grips. # 144450. Tell me they did not come off a 32/20---

 

[glenncal1]

OP- great score. That is a very clean old warhorse. These guns are real fun to shoot and like most .32's are generally very accurate. I don't know why ammo is so hard to find now, it is usually easy to find if a little pricey.

 

[DWalt]

My theory is that there may well have been some .32-20 revolvers assembled later from parts remaining in inventory after manufacturing ceased. Shipments made during the 1930s probably consisted of boxed 1920s-assembled revolvers remaining in inventory until they were gone, and to fill later orders, components remaining in inventory, notably barrels, frames, and cylinders specific to the .32-20, were used up to assemble completed revolvers for occasional orders that came in. Those guns assembled later in the 1930s (if there are any) from remaining components would logically have used the 1930s style silver medallion grips. It is not likely that there would have been very many of those.

Regarding the cessation of manufacture, The highest SCSW verified .32-20 SN known is 144684 (shipping date unknown). It is reasonable to assume that is very close to, or may be, the highest numbered frame made. The highest SN I have listed which was shipped in the 1920s is 142578 which shipped in 9/29. That one would necessarily have been made in the late 1920s. I also show 143697, which shipped in 10/31 and 143556 which shipped in 9/30. They are also are very likely to have been made and assembled in the late 1920s. And less than 1000 from the highest .32-20 SN known. So there is a very strong possibility that actual manufacture ceased sometime in 1929-30, and all later shipments were from completed finished goods inventory, or cleanup of frames, barrels, and cylinders in remaining parts parts inventory by assembly. Then there is the the mystery of SN 141611 which left the factory in 1965.

 

[Brooks]

Really very good condition! You stole it at $300.

 

[mikepriwer]

Lee

It looks to me as though whoever mounted those medallions on the grips did not know how to use a drill! On both panels, the wood is broken where the rivet comes through the inside of the panel. I've never seen that on any of my medallion grips. I could be wrong, but that does not look like factory work.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[DWalt]

An earlier discourse on the .32-20 M&P production termination time. https://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-h...oduction-stopped-1930-a.html?highlight=141611
GLOWE also mentions seeing a .32-20 M&P in the 14xxxx SN range having the 1930s style silver medallion grips. That would be logical for a .32-20 M&P assembled from inventory parts later in the 1930s. It is unlikely that an exact date when S&W ceased .32-20 production will be known, but the preponderance of serial number evidence suggests it was in 1929-30.

 

[handejector]

Lee

It looks to me as though whoever mounted those medallions on the grips did not know how to use a drill! On both panels, the wood is broken where the rivet comes through the inside of the panel. I've ever seen that on any of my medallion grips. I could be wrong, but that does not look like factory work.

Regards, Mike Priwer

Mike,
Start looking at more 1940 (wartime) guns. That splintering is not uncommon.

 

[Cotis]

I just woke up in the middle of the night. While laying in the dark waiting to fall back to sleep this pistol popped into my mind! Had to grab the ipad and look at it again. What a great story of finding it and picking it up! For some reason I am very jealous of this one, it just seems like it wiuld be so much fun on the range or in the field with friends rabbit hunting. REALLY COOL, thanks for sharing.

 

[Casual Smith Nut]

That's a beauty! Well done at $300.
Any decent shape prewar K frame for that price is a no brainer. The fact that it's in 32-20 is a plus. Love that cartridge. I see it as the more affordable way to get a K frame 32 mag. As long as you have plenty of brass you can have lots of fun loading powder puff loads and and on up to hotter loads with more bite. A lot of people use Unique as their go-to powder for 32-20. Since I can't find Unique locally I've been happy using HP-38.

 

[Hawg Rider]

You found a really nice .32-20 at a great price! My 6" .32-20 M&P (Model of 1905 4th Change) is a little earlier (118705, ca. 1923) and shows a lot more wear, but it's very good mechanically. I picked it up off of GB a few years ago for $475. A previous owner decided to add a copper bead to the front sight...and it actually helps! Enjoy!

 

[JP@AK]

I keep wondering where that data comes from.

Lee
In addition to the examples mentioned by DWalt, here are some other examples of units with high serial numbers shipping by 1931:

141040 - December, 1928
141045 - March, 1929
141399 - March, 1928
143236 - March, 1930
143529 - 1931
143607 - October, 1931

Since 144684 is the highest number known, these data tend to indicate that actual production stopped somewhere around 1930. Moreover, some of the units with relatively high serial numbers show up with the mushroom shaped extractor rod knob. That doesn't prove anything, but it is a curious fact, possibly indicating that those earlier parts were still around after the M&P started getting the barrel shaped knob in about 1927.

Overall, my impression of the data would indicate that the relatively few 32-20 HEs that shipped in the 1930s were either sold from the vault or were given final assembly from leftover parts during that decade.

So, my answer to your question would be in two parts:
1. We cannot prove the premise with any certainty; but
2. There are enough indicators from the available data that points in the direction of actual production ceasing in about 1930.

More information may well come to light that will challenge that tentative conclusion, but for now I am of the opinion that the conclusion is reasonable.

 

[mikepriwer]

Lee

The only wartime revolver I have that shipped with silver medallion grips is a 1940 .38 M&P shipped to the Norwegian Air Force in Canada, otherwise known as Little Norway. Serial number is 695052, and was in a shipment of 625 .38 revolvers. Here is the factory letter.

Next picture is the inside of the grip panels, showing both the serial number, and the rivet heads for the silver medallion.

If nothing else, this is a neater mounting of the medallions, than the ones shown earlier in this thread.



The last two pictures are of the revolver, after I had imported it, but before I had a chance to clean off a lot of dried-up grease.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[glowe]

Jack's serial numbers are relatively close in comparison to ship dates. The last four in my database show more of a spread for ship dates with little serial number order.

143529 07/00/1931
143607 10/27/1931
143892 2/8/1939
144263 1/00/1937

The parts gun theory is reasonable and probable. First, if parts were available and orders still coming in, the factory would have assembled any number of 32-20s to satisfy orders until barrels and cylinders were gone. Only those two things differ from a 38 M&P from the 1930s, including the stocks.

The story always has been that the wood stocks were fitted to a gun frame very early in the manufacture process, so if 32-20 production stopped before 1930, all would have had 1920s stocks. Roy states in the book that the "manufacturing dates" for the 4th Change ran from 1915 to 1940, not 1930??

 

[DWalt]

As the .32-20 frames were numbered in a different series, they were probably segregated from .38 Special frames. I have understood that S&W applied serial numbers to frames during manufacture. While possible, S&W very probably never built a .32-20 revolver on a .38 Special-numbered frame. So when the inventory of numbered .32-20 frames ran out, that was the end of the line.Nothing would have prevented running a small number of additional frames in the .32-20 with correct continuation SNs, but I doubt they would have bothered doing that.

 

[glowe]

As the .32-20 frames were numbered in a different series, they were probably segregated from .38 Special frames. I have understood that S&W applied serial numbers to frames during manufacture. While possible, S&W very probably never built a .32-20 revolver on a .38 Special-numbered frame . . .

All that had to be done was to number a few frames in the 32-20 serial number range. No fuss, no muss. Could also have just pulled forgings out of the barrel and numbered them by hand. Reality was that they came out of the same forge all the time they were made, some went to 32-20 production, while most went to 38 production. Not sure why you think this is so difficult??

 

[rct269]

I've never paid that much attention to what serial numbers shipped when, but for those who do, here are a couple of 32/20's.

".32/20 Hand Ejector Model of 1905 Second Change Target------#42094---------- shipped" December 22, 1908.

".32/20 Hand Ejector Model of 1905 Fourth Change Target-------#114655---------shipped" August 21, 1923.

A rather odd (at least to me) spread in selling prices may be interesting (both guns being in very good condition): The first gun fetched $3,300, the last went for $1,225.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[DWalt]

All that had to be done was to number a few frames in the 32-20 serial number range. No fuss, no muss. Could also have just pulled forgings out of the barrel and numbered them by hand. Reality was that they came out of the same forge all the time they were made, some went to 32-20 production, while most went to 38 production. Not sure why you think this is so difficult??

I didn't say that it would be difficult, but rather wondered if S&W would have bothered to do it as they clearly wanted to get out of the .32-20 M&P business. For that matter, there was no particular reason that they couldn't have continued to assemble .32-20 components on an already serial numbered .38 Special frame if they wanted to.

 

[LaVistaBill]

Very Very nice pick up at that amount. It looks in orig condition
and the nice era grips are a bonus to have. You might want to look on the back side
of the usually right grip and see if the are serial numbered to the gun in pencil.
Sometimes it's hard to make out the faded marked ser numbers.
That would be nice plus if it's all ser numbered together..
You did very well on it..

I took the grips off to install a B.K. Grip adapter and the grips number to the gun. Yeah!

 

[LaVistaBill]

Great snag for $300. I dont see a full box of 50 cartridges. I see only 25 in a nice box.

As I said in the original posting, there were only 28 rounds in the box, the rest was cotton filler.

 

[LaVistaBill]

OP- great score. That is a very clean old warhorse. These guns are real fun to shoot and like most .32's are generally very accurate. I don't know why ammo is so hard to find now, it is usually easy to find if a little pricey.

My sole reason for going to gun shows is to look for old ammo. I also found a man selling commercial .32-30 reloads. I accumulated enough brass that now I handload for .32-20.

 

[LaVistaBill]

So it looks like my .32-20 is older than I thought. I was going by Jink's HISTORY OF S&W and the fact that it didn't have the mushroom-type ejector rod head. Never say never on older Smiths!

 

[Retired W4]

My sole reason for going to gun shows is to look for old ammo. I also found a man selling commercial .32-30 reloads. I accumulated enough brass that now I handload for .32-20.

You should have fun at the upcoming show in your home town. Several of my friends will be there.