Model 1917 commercial in .45 Long Colt ?????

[beagleye]

Knightston?

Jim
Is the nickel .455/45 colt that sold in indiana going to be displayed? If so what kind of grips will it get. I seem to recall it was rather poorly adorned.
Thanks, Pete

 

[Oyeboteb]

As far as I understand it, there would not have been any Model of 1917 S&W Revolvers factory Chambered for .45 Colt.


Though there were some very few 2nd Model Hand Ejectors which were factory Chambered in .45 Colt, just as there were some chambered in .44 WCF - .44-40.

There was a very nice one in fact, a 2nd Model HE in .44-40 a few months back on Gunbroker, and, I was delighted just to see one even if only in images. It actually sold pretty reasonable, all things considered.

Unless attending an S&W Collector's Show, few to any of us will ever see either.

The 2nd Model Hand Ejectors which were originally chambered in the .455 Eley for use by Commonwealth Countries in the 1914 - 1918 War, those are what one encounters now chambering .45 Colt, for their having been modifed to do so. And, sometimes, often really, their Barrels have been re-Stamped to say "45" instead of .455...usually by obliterating the last '5', but any sort of over-stamping is possible.

The possibility of encountering an original factory 2nd Model HE in .45 Colt would have to be truely astronomical in any context other than that of an S&W Collector's Show.

 

[Bill Bates]

If there were a Commercial 1917 .45 Colt Ctg. it might look like this 1917 commercial revolver chambered in .45 Colt Ctg.

 

[bmg60]

HI
All the 45 Colt chambered revolvers that I have seen and that I own were as follows.
1. Triple lock 45 colt Blue 6 1/2 shipped 1910 23 made. I own this one
2. 455 2nd model 6 1/2 blue fixed sight one of 15 made in 1916. I own
this one
3. 455 2nd model 3 3/4 inch Target made in 1916 one made I own
this one
4. I have not seen any 2nd models in 45 colt.
5. I have not seen any 3rd models in 45 colt.
6. Heavy duty 38/44 chambered in 45 colt 12 made in 1937-38 for
sherriffs dept in Calf. I own one in 5 inch blue 98% all original
7. There was one Commerical 1917 in 45 Colt Nickel finish owned by
a Texas ranger.
8. There was one Pre 22 45 colt made in 1953 with a extra 45 acp
It letters that way with the original box 98 % I own this one.
9. There was one run of 200 made in the Pre Model 26 in 45 colt I own
one of these.
10. there were some 455 2nd models made for Canada in 45 Colt we
don't know how many but a couple of members of the fourm have
one of these.
I hope this helps a little
Jim Fisher

 

[Texas Star]

Because the second model could be ordered in 45, we probably don't know how many were made.

Sasha Siemel stated repeatedly in his jungle books that he and many others in Brazil favored S&W .44 revolvers. But he didn't identify the models, or the exact .44 cartridge. He owned a Winchester .44-40 carbine and was friendly with Dan Wesson. Might his gun have been in .44-40? The ammo was probably more available in Brazil then, as the Winchester M-92 was so popular there. Rossi still makes a good copy of it.
I doubt that .44 Spcl. was as available.

But how many .44-40 S&W's do we KNOW about today? The same may apply to .45 Colt chamberings. But I think that most wanting a .45 Colt bought a New Service. S&W listed the .45 on order, but probably discouraged such orders. And the New Service handled recoil better than an S&W, prior to the Magna grips.

 

[beagleye]

Thanks for taking the time to do that Jim I don't see the knightston gun on that list.

HI
All the 45 Colt chambered revolvers that I have seen and that I own were as follows.
1. Triple lock 45 colt Blue 6 1/2 shipped 1910 23 made. I own this one
2. 455 2nd model 6 1/2 blue fixed sight one of 15 made in 1916. I own
this one
3. 455 2nd model 3 3/4 inch Target made in 1916 one made I own
this one
4. I have not seen any 2nd models in 45 colt.
5. I have not seen any 3rd models in 45 colt.
6. Heavy duty 38/44 chambered in 45 colt 12 made in 1937-38 for
sherriffs dept in Calf. I own one in 5 inch blue 98% all original
7. There was one Commerical 1917 in 45 Colt Nickel finish owned by
a Texas ranger.
8. There was one Pre 22 45 colt made in 1953 with a extra 45 acp
It letters that way with the original box 98 % I own this one.
9. There was one run of 200 made in the Pre Model 26 in 45 colt I own
one of these.
10. there were some 455 2nd models made for Canada in 45 Colt we
don't know how many but a couple of members of the fourm have
one of these.
I hope this helps a little
Jim Fisher

 

[bettis1]

The 2nd Model Hand Ejectors which were originally chambered in the .455 Eley for use by Commonwealth Countries in the 1914 - 1918 War, those are what one encounters now chambering .45 Colt, for their having been modifed to do so. And, sometimes, often really, their Barrels have been re-Stamped to say "45" instead of .455...usually by obliterating the last '5', but any sort of over-stamping is possible.

The possibility of encountering an original factory 2nd Model HE in .45 Colt would have to be truely astronomical in any context other than that of an S&W Collector's Show.

Re: The .455 Mark II HE.

At the very end of production of the .455 Mark II (Between April and June 1917) the Factory manufactured and shipped 703 Special Commercial Production Second Models in .45 Colt caliber. Unfortunately, the manufacturing records do not record the serial numbers of those guns. Revolver #7474x shipped on May 4, 1917 and is one of those guns. It is a 6.5", .45 Colt and there is no indication of any caliber marked on the gun.

I believe that Jim Fisher also has one of these. There are approximately 700 more out there so don't be too quick to assume that a .45 Colt 2nd Model that you find is a converted .455. Check it closely for any indications of modification by either the Factory or a private gunsmith and if you don't see any such indications, check with Roy! The odds of it being an original Factory .45 Colt would be roughly 1%.

Bob

P.S. This gun shipped to a US Mining Company.

 

[beagleye]

No caliber markings

The one I saw this winter had no caliber marking.

 

[bmg60]

hi
the no calber markings is one way to tell but there is another thing to look for but you have to have a mic with you. If you measure a original 455 front sight height and measure a 45 colt front sight there is a few thousand difference in the height. I would have to go measure mine to tell you how much but there is a difference. I think its like 15 or 20 thousands.
Jim Fisher

 

[Texas Star]

If S&W did indeed ship some .45 Colt-chambered guns that had no caliber marking, why? Did they hate that much to put Colt on their barrels? Could have just marked them as .45 LC. It seems as if there'd be liability issues with not marking the caliber, even then.

And they sent out about 700 of these?!

How did they mark .44 WCF guns?

 

[chud333]

.455 in 45 colt sold this winter at auction in Knightston Indiana for a cool thousand. Someone around this forum probably knows where it went. The owner told me it was a special order, claimed to be the second owner. It was pretty sweet.

Hey Beagleye, I was at that auction. Thats where i bought my 66-3 in 3". There we're 95 handguns in the auction and 2/3rds
of them we're Smiths. I did'nt have alot to spend as it was
right before Christmas. I still have the auction listing with all guns in the sale with serial numbers and prices realized.
The sale was held in the "Hoosier Gym" where they made the movie Hoosiers. I also played my 6th grade basketball in that gym and went to grade school right there. This was of course way before they filmed parts of the movie there.


chuck

 

[Sprefix]

WOW!!!!!!!

HI
All the 45 Colt chambered revolvers that I have seen and that I own were as follows.
1. Triple lock 45 colt Blue 6 1/2 shipped 1910 23 made. I own this one
2. 455 2nd model 6 1/2 blue fixed sight one of 15 made in 1916. I own
this one
3. 455 2nd model 3 3/4 inch Target made in 1916 one made I own
this one
4. I have not seen any 2nd models in 45 colt.
5. I have not seen any 3rd models in 45 colt.
6. Heavy duty 38/44 chambered in 45 colt 12 made in 1937-38 for
sherriffs dept in Calf. I own one in 5 inch blue 98% all original
7. There was one Commerical 1917 in 45 Colt Nickel finish owned by
a Texas ranger.
8. There was one Pre 22 45 colt made in 1953 with a extra 45 acp
It letters that way with the original box 98 % I own this one.
9. There was one run of 200 made in the Pre Model 26 in 45 colt I own
one of these.
10. there were some 455 2nd models made for Canada in 45 Colt we
don't know how many but a couple of members of the fourm have
one of these.
I hope this helps a little
Jim Fisher

SPEECHLESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[bettis1]

If S&W did indeed ship some .45 Colt-chambered guns that had no caliber marking, why? Did they hate that much to put Colt on their barrels? Could have just marked them as .45 LC. It seems as if there'd be liability issues with not marking the caliber, even then.

And they sent out about 700 of these?!

Without a written record, I think we are left to our own devices when we speculate why or why not the Factory did something.

Regarding the 2nd Model .45 Colt I can only tell you what Roy said in his letter:

"Between April and June 1917 Smith & Wesson manufactured 700 units of this model that are listed in the manufacturing records as .45 Colt caliber. Unfortunately, the manufacture records do not record serial numbers. The shipping records for this model list in this same time period the sale of 703 units, but the shipping records do not list the caliber. I am positive that the sale of these 703 units are the .45 Colt listed in the manufacturing records. The extra 3 units could have been manufactured from revolvers that had already been assembled."​

The date of Roy's letter quoted above is November 2010 so the information supersedes any printed records that I know of.

This is an interesting gun and I hope to get around to writing an article about it for the SWCA Journal.

Bob

 

[Texas Star]

Bob-

Thanks. So, no known reason produces speculation? I guess that's a good summary.

I was hoping that there was some record. Thanks for the post above about some .45 Colt guns going to a US mining company.

 

[Scary Gary]

So I picked it up.
S/N 59040
It has crossed flags on the frame and cylinder.
on the right side of the frame forward of the trigger guard is stamped 4MD with 13 under the 4MD .
Under the S&W logo is stamped in tiny numbers is 2280 .
And on the barrel it says Smith & Wesson .455. .
Any information on this would be very much appreciated.
Sorry no pictures.

 

[Texas Star]

About time, Gary! With that info, it's clear that you have a .455 made for the Commonwealth about 1915-17, and some served with RAF and reserve units until after WW II.

If you see a "C" stamp with an arrowhead (Broad Arrow Crown property mark) inside, it indicates the gun went to Canada. Without that mark, it probably went to the UK.

Just get it checked by a gunsmith and be sure that the caliber wasn't altered for sale here.

 

[Scary Gary]

I got it from a reputable gunsmith who said it had been made to shoot .45 Long Colt and that it should shoot the standard .45 LC just fine.
Now if it will shoot .45 LC will it shoot .45 ACP in moon clips?

 

[Texas Star]

I got it from a reputable gunsmith who said it had been made to shoot .45 Long Colt and that it should shoot the standard .45 LC just fine.
Now if it will shoot .45 LC will it shoot .45 ACP in moon clips?

Most likely not. Think of the different headspace dimensions.

And those cylinders weren't heat treated and are thin at the bolt cuts.Don't exceed standard .45 Colt factory pressures, if that, if you handload. I'd limit velocities to 800 FPS or less, but a 250 grain Keith bullet at that speed is deadly at average gunfight ranges. It packs more punch than GI .45acp bullets.

 

[bettis1]

Gary,

The "Reputable Gunsmith" wasn't completely accurate in his statement. Your gun was "MADE to shoot the .455 Eley. It was MODIFIED to shoot the .45 Colt". Just be sure that the modification was properly made.

Bob

 

[Scary Gary]

That's exactly what the gunsmith said.
He said who ever modified it to shoot .45 Long Colt did a good job and that it should shoot standard .45 Long Colt just fine.
I worded it make instead of modified . I reread it I seen that I didn't make my point well.
Sorry.