1Aspenhill
US Veteran, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
There were 22 Heavy Duties made in .45 Colt at last count.
Bill
Bill
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Model 1917 commercial in .45 Long Colt ?????
- Thread starter Scary Gary
- Start date
MyDogReese
Member
Yes, there were a number of 1917 S&Ws chambered in .45 colt.
A couple of years ago, I asked Hamilton Bowen to make me a replica 1917 from a Ruger Redhawk that could handle heavy loads, something to handle dangerous game. He suggested .50 AE, because they would load in a moon clip like .45 ACP. I asked about .45 Colt (at 1325 fps) and he told me, yeah, that's a good idea because there were a bunch of commercial 1917s chambered in .45 Colt, so it would be authentic in spirit.
If I remember, I will post a picture of Bowen's work.
MDR
A couple of years ago, I asked Hamilton Bowen to make me a replica 1917 from a Ruger Redhawk that could handle heavy loads, something to handle dangerous game. He suggested .50 AE, because they would load in a moon clip like .45 ACP. I asked about .45 Colt (at 1325 fps) and he told me, yeah, that's a good idea because there were a bunch of commercial 1917s chambered in .45 Colt, so it would be authentic in spirit.
If I remember, I will post a picture of Bowen's work.
MDR
Correct, Keith was not referring to the .45 Schofield as someone speculated above. They were only loaded by Remington UMC (that's a clue as to how long ago) and had the standard rim size of the longer .45 Colt, not the wide rim of the Schofield which is the "dead giveaway".
Another confused cartridge was the short .45 Frankford loaded only for the 1906 Military trials for a requested new military .45 DA Revolver. S&W designed the cartridge as the .45 S&W Special and chambered prototype TLs for it that were tested in the trails.
It was all for naught when the Army turned to the .45 ACP in the 1911 Browning semi auto and the rest is history. Any .45 Frankford/.45 S&W Spl cartridges have long since been shot up in .45 Colt chambered revolvers or disappeared into collections.
DWalt
Member
"Correct, Keith was not referring to the .45 Schofield as someone speculated above. They were only loaded by Remington UMC (that's a clue as to how long ago) and had the standard rim size of the longer .45 Colt, not the wide rim of the Schofield which is the "dead giveaway"."
The .45 Colt and the shorter .45 Schofield cartridges have, within manufacturing tolerances, the same rim size. I have measured quite a few of them, and found only a few thousandths of an inch differences. I'd suspect that the great majority of Schofield cartridges were loaded at Frankford Arsenal for Army use. Most every civilian shooter would have used .45 Colt cartridges, unless he had a Schofield revolver. Indeed, the .45 Smith & Wesson (aka .45 Schofield) cartridge was loaded by UMC, and later Remington. It was last listed in the 1937 Remington ammunition catalog.
The .45 round with the oversized rim diameter was the Army's short-lived ".45 Caliber Ball Cartridge, Model of 1909," made for the Colt New Service Model 1909 revolver. It was loaded only at Frankford Arsenal. There's always been debate as to why it had a larger rim, but the official reason given was for more positive extraction from the Colt Model 1909 revolver. However, the .45 Colt and .45 Schofield cartridges will also work OK in the M1909 revolver.
The .45 Colt and the shorter .45 Schofield cartridges have, within manufacturing tolerances, the same rim size. I have measured quite a few of them, and found only a few thousandths of an inch differences. I'd suspect that the great majority of Schofield cartridges were loaded at Frankford Arsenal for Army use. Most every civilian shooter would have used .45 Colt cartridges, unless he had a Schofield revolver. Indeed, the .45 Smith & Wesson (aka .45 Schofield) cartridge was loaded by UMC, and later Remington. It was last listed in the 1937 Remington ammunition catalog.
The .45 round with the oversized rim diameter was the Army's short-lived ".45 Caliber Ball Cartridge, Model of 1909," made for the Colt New Service Model 1909 revolver. It was loaded only at Frankford Arsenal. There's always been debate as to why it had a larger rim, but the official reason given was for more positive extraction from the Colt Model 1909 revolver. However, the .45 Colt and .45 Schofield cartridges will also work OK in the M1909 revolver.
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The balloon head Schofield rim of the day was not a great deal larger than the balloon head short and long Colt round of the same period, but it was .018" larger +/- .003" due to manuf. tolerances when measuring the balloon head 45 Colt, 45 short Colt and balloon head Schofield rounds in my collection, clearly not the same and enough to make a difference. Also enough to require different shell holders in most brands of reloading tools when I reload them.
The headstamps of the Remington short 45 Colt and the 45 Schofield were always different to delineate their lack interchangeability in S&W revolvers. Also, recognize that the Remington "short" 45 Colt round is not a Remington version of the 45 Schofield because it has a thick rim like the 45 Colt and will not chamber in S&W Schofield revolvers.
Actually the difference between modern solid head 45 Colt rims and modern solid head Schofield rims is less at a measured difference of .010" +/- . The solid head 45 Colt having evolved to a larger rim.
Yes, the ".45 Caliber Ball Cartridge, Model of 1909," was the other cartridge specifically designed with a larger rim similar to the Schofield for more reliable extraction in DA revolvers.
The headstamps of the Remington short 45 Colt and the 45 Schofield were always different to delineate their lack interchangeability in S&W revolvers. Also, recognize that the Remington "short" 45 Colt round is not a Remington version of the 45 Schofield because it has a thick rim like the 45 Colt and will not chamber in S&W Schofield revolvers.
Actually the difference between modern solid head 45 Colt rims and modern solid head Schofield rims is less at a measured difference of .010" +/- . The solid head 45 Colt having evolved to a larger rim.
Yes, the ".45 Caliber Ball Cartridge, Model of 1909," was the other cartridge specifically designed with a larger rim similar to the Schofield for more reliable extraction in DA revolvers.
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DWalt
Member
Just to put some numbers on .45 rim diameters, I checked information in Hackley, Woodin, and Scranton's book on U. S. military cartridges. They provide no dimensional information on the early inside-primed .45 Colt and .45 Schofield cartridges. The first reloadable Boxer-primed copper cased .45 Schofield round (the M1882) had a 0.524" nominal diameter rim. Due to manufacturing tolerances, there was apparently some difficulty experienced in rim interference in the Colt SAA revolver. Therefore, in 1887 the rim diameter was ordered to be reduced to 0.513" nominal (0.510"-0.516" tolerance). And there it stayed. The final rim diameter of the M1909 cartridge was 0.536" nominal. The current .45 Colt has a rim diameter of 0.512"
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DWalt, I appreciate all of your research.
Respectfully though, you're mixing time periods. Also I learned a long time ago the books are fine as far as they go. But they often don't match the actual product result, as in this case.
Schofield actual average dimensions from several samples using a Starret mic and checking with a vernier caliper:
.5215" - external primed copper case arsenal head stamped 1887 (2 different boxes), reduced, yes, but still .016" wider than 45 Colt of the same era and later.
.518" - brass case balloon heads commercial UMC & REM-UMC
.518" - Current solid head cases
45 Colt actual averages:
.504" - internal primed copper case
.504" - copper external primed
.504" - brass balloon heads, several brands checked
.510" to 5.012" late balloon heads and current solid head brass depending on brand, several brands
45 Colt short REM-UMC:
.5065" - brass balloon heads (the only style made to my knowledge)
Therefore my point remains that the Schofield has a larger rim (and thinner rim) than the Colt cartridges and the wide rimmed 1909 45 Colt was not the 1st nor the only extra wide 45 cartridge as dimensionally shown above and in my 1st post on this.
As you may sense, I've had this discussion before. But we can agree to disagree if you prefer, and I apologize to OP, Scary Gary, for further hijacking his thread if this is not of his interest.
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DWalt
Member
Over 5 inches?
m1917 S&W
I have been reading the different threads and I think I have one of those 700 revolvers that were sent to canada a from the S&W factory my 152xx sn#s match up on the frame cylinder and barrel the crane has a different # 9571 and that matches to a # on the frame where the crane rest on the frame and I have a C with a arrow head on the left side of the frame With canadian proofs on the back of the cylinder in between each chamer covering up the sn# I dont know how to send a picture and I am having problems with the computer I have already sent a thread describing this revolver earlier would love to have a more definite conclusion if possible thank you
I have been reading the different threads and I think I have one of those 700 revolvers that were sent to canada a from the S&W factory my 152xx sn#s match up on the frame cylinder and barrel the crane has a different # 9571 and that matches to a # on the frame where the crane rest on the frame and I have a C with a arrow head on the left side of the frame With canadian proofs on the back of the cylinder in between each chamer covering up the sn# I dont know how to send a picture and I am having problems with the computer I have already sent a thread describing this revolver earlier would love to have a more definite conclusion if possible thank you
gary tree,
Welcome to the forum.
What cartridge is your revolver chambered for and what's the barrel length?
I don't think you have a 1917. You likely have a 455 Mk II hand Ejector - 2nd Model.
The # in the yoke that you see is an assembly #. It's third location is the inside of the side plate.
See below for the locations of the matching serial # including the yoke:
Serial # locations: To confirm all parts are original, check for your 6 matching serial # locations for fixed sight pre war Hand Ejectors and all post war Hand Ejectors thru ~1956.
NOTE: Observing serial #s for accuracy or even existence, especially on penciled stocks, requires magnification, bright light, and an attitude that it is there!
1. Gun butt - or forestrap on I frames/single shots with grips that cover the butt
2. Barrel - bottom of barrel or in extractor shroud
3. Yoke - on rear face only visible thru a chamber with a flashlight
4. Extractor star - backside
5. Cylinder - rear face
6. Right stock only - on back; stamped, scratched or penciled depending on vintage and stock material. (except most target grips because individual fitting not required.)
Welcome to the forum.
What cartridge is your revolver chambered for and what's the barrel length?
I don't think you have a 1917. You likely have a 455 Mk II hand Ejector - 2nd Model.
The # in the yoke that you see is an assembly #. It's third location is the inside of the side plate.
See below for the locations of the matching serial # including the yoke:
Serial # locations: To confirm all parts are original, check for your 6 matching serial # locations for fixed sight pre war Hand Ejectors and all post war Hand Ejectors thru ~1956.
NOTE: Observing serial #s for accuracy or even existence, especially on penciled stocks, requires magnification, bright light, and an attitude that it is there!
1. Gun butt - or forestrap on I frames/single shots with grips that cover the butt
2. Barrel - bottom of barrel or in extractor shroud
3. Yoke - on rear face only visible thru a chamber with a flashlight
4. Extractor star - backside
5. Cylinder - rear face
6. Right stock only - on back; stamped, scratched or penciled depending on vintage and stock material. (except most target grips because individual fitting not required.)
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