Model 1917 commercial in .45 Long Colt ?????

[Scary Gary]

I removed the grips and found another stamp.
Left side, upper right corner under the 1950's diamond grips is stamped an arrow pointing up with crown under that, and the number 44 under that with an E under that, with what looks like II under that.
Any idea what that stamp means?

 

[beagleye]

Hey Beagleye, I was at that auction. Thats where i bought my 66-3 in 3". There we're 95 handguns in the auction and 2/3rds
of them we're Smiths. I did'nt have alot to spend as it was
right before Christmas. I still have the auction listing with all guns in the sale with serial numbers and prices realized.
The sale was held in the "Hoosier Gym" where they made the movie Hoosiers. I also played my 6th grade basketball in that gym and went to grade school right there. This was of course way before they filmed parts of the movie there.


chuck

That was a great auction and a cool gym. Does the auction listing give the serial number for the Nickle N frame. I seem to recall the description was pretty vague but it would be interesting to compare the number to the others mentioned here. I was there for that gun, left empty handed, it went to an internet buyer. In hind sight I wish I had gone after the 2 38-44s that both went for under 6. Not as rare but just as awesome.

Also if possible post a link to that gun.

Thanks, Pete

 

[KEN L]

Okay now I'm sick .
I seen it on Thursday and thought about it. Last night I decided to get it. So today my boy and I went there and it was gone.
the gun store did confirm that it was in .45 long colt.
Would've , could've , should've.
I'm going to get a drink now.

We've all done it! Over the years I've just convinced myself, it wasn't meant to be and I didn't get that one, because something better is coming. And, you know what? It usually does! Happy Hunting, they're still out there!!

 

[Scary Gary]

So yesterday I pick up a box of Cowboy Action Shooting .45 Long Colt .
And today we shot it. I got about a 3 inch group at 25 feet. I think the gun can shoot better then I can. With the 200 Grain lead Rounded Flat Point Cowboy Action rounds it was an absolute joy to shoot.
We just love this gun.

 

[linde]

1917 Commercial factory conversion

Is there such a thing as a S&W 1917 commercial in .45 Long Colt? If so what can you tell me about them?

I don't know of any 1917s that were manufactured in .45 Colt, but I suppose one could have been converted.

Here is what I believe to be a factory conversion of a 1917 Commercial from 45 ACP to 45 Colt Target. Based on the longer cylinder and reduced headspace I am convinced the cylinder was replaced and is numbered to the frame. The barrel was also replaced and numbered to the frame with a diamond (replacement) symbol added.

The star on the butt and the 7.49 stamp on the left side of the grip frame suggests this conversion was made around the time the factory was exploring the introduction of a target 45. More speculation on my part is the conversion of the rib-less 1917 barrel to target . . . with its awkward high front sight . . . didn't pass muster and the result was the completely redesigned Model of 1950.

I'd love to know who commissioned this conversion. My guess is a serious competitive target shooter . . . but that's only speculation. If enough of us support the efforts of the Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation in their endeavor to digitize the factory records (including work orders) . . . one day we'll know.

I've included a few pictures but many more detailed ones are available on request.

Russ

 

[Catshooter]

Wow Russ, that's a beauty for sure. Thanks.


Cat

 

[Oyeboteb]

Re: The .455 Mark II HE.

At the very end of production of the .455 Mark II (Between April and June 1917) the Factory manufactured and shipped 703 Special Commercial Production Second Models in .45 Colt caliber. Unfortunately, the manufacturing records do not record the serial numbers of those guns. Revolver #7474x shipped on May 4, 1917 and is one of those guns. It is a 6.5", .45 Colt and there is no indication of any caliber marked on the gun.

I believe that Jim Fisher also has one of these. There are approximately 700 more out there so don't be too quick to assume that a .45 Colt 2nd Model that you find is a converted .455. Check it closely for any indications of modification by either the Factory or a private gunsmith and if you don't see any such indications, check with Roy! The odds of it being an original Factory .45 Colt would be roughly 1%.

Bob

P.S. This gun shipped to a US Mining Company.

Wow...thanks bettis1 for this clearifcation.


So...there is Hope afterall, that someday...I might find one!



If I have it straight then or do I? - there were some New Century aka 'Triple Locks' in .45 Colt, and, in .44-40.

There were some .455 Series Serial Numberings in the erstwhile 2nd Model Hand Ejector Line, which were in .45 Colt...but none in .44-40.

There were no Model 1917 Revolvers, as such, chambered in .45 Colt or .44-40, since all were in .45 ACP.

There were some so-called Model 1917 Commercial Revolvers, chambered in .45 Colt, ( which makes zero sense to me, since to be a M1917 it would have to have had the larger Head Space for the Moon Clipped .45 ACP, soi what then makes one of these a Model 1917? Would it be the Serial Numbering range?) but are there any known in .44-40?

There were some 2nd Model Hand Ejectors proper, which were in .44-40...and, some which were in .45 Colt.


Am I leaving anything out?

Do I have it right? Am I close? Or..?

Thanks!

 

[bmg60]

hi
you are close there have been no 45 colts seen or lettered in the
2nd model numbered series 17xxx to 36xxx.
There were 12 or 13 45 colts made in the heavy duty series. in 1937 and 1938 for a sherriff dept in cal. the factory charged $ 1.00 extra to make them as a special order.
Jim Fisher

 

[Texas Star]

And there may be special orders for some guns we just don't lnow about. Nothing is absolute in S&W's.


BTW, if you read the late Elmer Keith's, "
Sixguns", you'll find an account by a Canadian who used his Triple Lock .455 to kill three Germans in a shell hole one night.
Many of those guns saw use in battle.

 

[Hondo44]

I got it from a reputable gunsmith who said it had been made to shoot .45 Long Colt and that it should shoot the standard .45 LC just fine.
Now if it will shoot .45 LC will it shoot .45 ACP in moon clips?

Scary Gary,

There is a very safe, inexpensive and simple way to be able to shoot 45 ACP with moon clips only and 45 Auto Rim AND 45 Colt in your re-chambered 455. Your gunsmith can make the modification in about 10 minutes.

The problem is the lack of headspace for moon clips or AR rim thickness.

The solution is to have the rear face of the cylinder turned in a lathe to increase the headspace about .050" if I recall. Your gunsmith will know. Your 45 Colts will headspace on the case mouth (if chamber lengths are correct for 45 Colt) instead of the case rim. They will stick out sufficiently (the same amount that ACPs stick out for the clips) for reliable ignition. You can cold blue the rear face of the cylinder.

 

[Scary Gary]

I got it because it was .45 Long Colt.
I'm not that concerned with it shooting ACP.
Thank you for the information.

 

[DWalt]

Just a reminder. There is no .45 Long Colt. It's only .45 Colt. Or it's .45 S&W which is a similar but shorter round as used in the Schofield. And that's not a .45 Short Colt either.

 

[Scary Gary]

Then why have I been saying .45 Long Colt all these years?

 

[DWalt]

Then why have I been saying .45 Long Colt all these years?

I don't know. I think some gun writer or writers started calling it that perhaps in the 1960s or 70s, and it just caught on, to the extent that the last few generations commonly call it the "Long" Colt. Serious cartridge collectors cringe at that term. It would be interesting if someone went back through the old gun magazines to establish when and where that started.

 

[Texas Star]

I don't know. I think some gun writer or writers started calling it that perhaps in the 1960s or 70s, and it just caught on, to the extent that the last few generations commonly call it the "Long" Colt. Serious cartridge collectors cringe at that term. It would be interesting if someone went back through the old gun magazines to establish when and where that started.

Certainly before Elmer Keith, who explained that there was a short Colt. He may have meant the Schofield.

 

[Hondo44]

I cringe at the sound or sight of 45 Long Colt but here's the history of the term:

Shortly after the Army procured S&W Schofields revolvers, the 1st time a supply depot accidentally shipped 45 Colt ammo to a unit issued the 45 S&W Schofield revolvers (needing the shorter S&W round), the Army figured out it had a multiple ammunition problem! Coincidentally troops were complaining about the recoil of the original Colt 40gr load of blackpowder and resulting poor marksmanship.

Soon the original 40 gr load was reduced to 28 grs. Then government arsenals established the 45 S&W round as standard (the short Colt referred to by Keith) since it would chamber in both the 45 Colt SAA and S&W revolvers.

However, since the 45 Colt cartridge inventory was not depleted for some time, those troopers that appreciated the superior performance of the 45 Colt round specifically requested the longer round, the long Colt round.
And there you have it; it was a description, never an official designation.

The rest of the story:
Since both revolvers were popular on the frontier the distinguishing description continued to be used whenever ammunition was purchased. SAA users wanted the 45 Colt rounds. As is the case with most misnomers, the damn term stuck. So much so that ammunition in 45 Colt caliber was actually marked 45 LC on packaging boxes and is to this day by some manufacturers. I have none by Remington or Winchester in my inventory, however.

I'm not buying it as a correct term however, merely a misnomer or physical description only with a small 'L'.

 

[Scary Gary]

My box of Bitterroot Valley 200 Grain Cowboy Action Round Flat Point Ammunition that I picked up at the gunshow on Saturday says .45 LC on the box.
I've been calling it .45 Long Colt ever sense I bout my first Ruger Vaquero about 20 years ago.

 

[Allen-frame]

Bump for a very cool and informative old thread.

Thanks to all who have contributed here.

Allen frame

 

[ddixie884]

At one time, I had an empty baloon head case. It was nickel plated, had no extracter groove, was schofield length with a very small rim. The headstamp said .45Colt. Keith said in Sixguns, these rnds were quite inferior to the longer Colt rnds with 40gr of black powder.

 

[wordsmith]

There were, to my knowledge, NO Model 1917 Army's chambered in .45 Colt.

There are at least 6, if not 8, known & lettered Mod. 1917 Commercial's chambered in .45 Colt. I've owned and sold at least 4 of these over the years, including the one-known nickle example. A couple of the known 6-8 have been in auction catalogs 3 times in the last 6-7 years. We just recently sold one of these, s/n 180XXX, originally shipped to a sheriff's sergeant in Southern California in 1938, to one of our clients who is a long-time SWCA member.

Whether Military or Commercial, this model was called by the factory, " The Model 1917", until the last Pre-war 'long action' types (Transition models) were built in 1949. Its successor was the 'short action' Model 1950, .45 Military, aka: Pre-Model 22, Model 22, Model 22-2.

No M-1917's were mfd. in .44/40, as far as we know.


David

Excerpted:

There were no Model 1917 Revolvers, as such, chambered in .45 Colt or .44-40, since all were in .45 ACP.

There were some so-called Model 1917 Commercial Revolvers, chambered in .45 Colt, ( which makes zero sense to me, since to be a M1917 it would have to have had the larger Head Space for the Moon Clipped .45 ACP, soi what then makes one of these a Model 1917? Would it be the Serial Numbering range?) but are there any known in .44-40?


Do I have it right? Am I close? Or..?

Thanks!