Model 25-2 accuracy?

[M29since14]

...Next up was the Mangus #808. It is a swaged 185 grain bullet.It was loaded to a OAL of 1.232 and all ten went into 1 3/4" This load shows potential and I need to tweak on it and see what might be left.
It is a all X-ring group if centered and will suit me if I don't find anything better. Seems odd that a .452 185 grain bullet worked this well in a gun with large throats. It is a soft almost flat base bullet.

Yes, it does seem odd, but those guns are just plain odd themselves. That is one of the best groups I have ever seen attributed to Model 25/1955. I don't think you left too much on the table when you shot that one.

Over the years I have been around maybe close to a dozen of those guns. The really odd thing to me is that I've seen 1955s that shot ball fairly well but not lead, others that shot lead wadcutters but not ball, and some that just wouldn't shoot anything. No apparent consistency. Model 29s don't seem to be erratic like that, nor do 24s, 27s, 57s, or any other model that comes to mind. They're cantankerous guns, as far as I am concerned. My 1955s are probably the only S&Ws I ever owned that made me think I needed a Ransom rest.

Let us know how the tweaking goes.

 

[mstuhr]

Magnus

Hi Folks,
I have been in touch with Magnus this morning and it has been determined that the bullet I used is in fact a #811 not an #808.
They have been around here for a while but for what ever reason have proven to be Magnus #811 185 grain .45 at .452.
As soon as we get a little better weather I will up grade the post with some different bullets/loads.
Thanks
Mike
Thanks and sorry for the confusion.

 

[sjmjax]

I'll also add to the opinion that the 25-2 guns are fickle.

I have two of them. One 5 screw & one 3 screw. Both have the humongous cylinder throats. Neither will shoot any lead bullet accurately. I've tried cast & swaged from .451 to .455 with a wide range of loads in both ACP & AR brass. I've also tried quite a few bullets intended for the .45 Colt. I don't get groups with any of them. I get shotgun patterns.

Just had a range session with them this past Sunday. Tested 230 grain Zero brand FMJ bullet with 6.0 grains Unique in AR brass. Spectacular results. Groups rival my K22 & K38 except with bigger holes.

My two guns will only shoot FJM accurately. Your milage may very.

On the other hand, my 3, 625-3's shoot anything you put in them well. I'm beginning to think you could shoot rocks in them and still get great groups.

 

[mstuhr]

Back again

Howdy,
I just rolled in from the range. I have been out with several different loads.
I am not going to post pictures of them all as most have been 3-4" @25 yards
I have tried Magnus bullets 185 grain,hard cast #801. Out of my auto they shoot great but no amount of adjustment seems to make them want to shoot in the 25-2 with 231 powder.
Here is where things get weird. I have been wanting to shoot some 155 grain bullets loaded backwards. Think about it. A dart has the weight forward and a tail to stabilize itself. A lot of airplanes are like that.
Also, a full wadcutter front profile is known to shoot.
I took delivery of some 155 grain bullets and tested them in various conventional loads and was not impressed with them in the 25-2. Here is what I came up with.

What happens when you load these and shoot them out of the 25-2?

Now this is a five shot group at 25 yards shot at the 67 gun club range. I prefer to shoot ten shot groups. I have loaded so much for this gun lately that won't shoot that I have started to shoot five shot groups until I come up with something that shows promise.
I will post a ten shot group soon.
This load is a Magnus 155 grain .45 @.452 loaded backwards over 4.5 grains of WW231 and a WW primer. OAL is .965 and factory crimp die crimped to .473.
They are slow to reload in the gun w/ moon clips.
I don't know how they will hold up at 50 yards? I will look in to that later on.
I can't think of a better load for 25 yard bullseye. If I can get to where I can drop a moon clip of these in the gun I'll look forward to shooting a little PPC with them next year.
This is a mild load and shows no sign of leading. I was worried about the tail in the case cooking down. Not a problem.
I'll keep you posted.
Merry Christmas everyone!
Mike

 

[H Richard]

Mike:
When you load for the 25-2 do you taper crimp or roll crimp?

Dick

 

[M29since14]

Think about it. A dart has the weight forward and a tail to stabilize itself. A lot of airplanes are like that.

...Now this is a five shot group at 25 yards shot at the 67 gun club range.

Interesting theory and results. Keep us posted. I may have to give this a try with some H&G #68s. They are 200-205 gr., but your principle may still apply. At worst it will be a fun experiment.

 

[mstuhr]

Howdy

Howdy,
Dick, I use a Lee factory crimp die.
Also, I use a Merit eye piece when I shoot groups. Might not mean much to the younger guys, but it helps me a lot.
Just goes to show you how odd the 25-2 can be. The best shooting load I have come across so far is about the last thing a person would try. Go figure?
I start in cooking for Christmas tomorrow and I doubt that I get any range time in anytime soon. When I do I'll see what kind of ten shot group it will do.
Thanks
Mike

 

[Denny Crane]

My experience is that it doesn't matter what type of bullet you use. When a .451 or .452 bullet is guided by a .458 throat it will not be accurate or consistent.

No combination of powder type or amount is going to obturate a .452 bullet in a .458 throat. No matter what the lead brinell rating is. I tried, it won't work. Not reliably anyway and when I am shooting a target revolver I think reliable, accurate and consistent is the goal.

I got tired of needing the Lewis Lead Remover after every 6 rounds.

 

[mstuhr]

.457

Hi Denny Crane,
My throats are .457 across the board. It has taken a little looking but I have two loads that shoot very good at 25 yards, both .452 bullets. One hard cast one soft swaged.
I read all the opinions of hard vs. soft bullets, .454 bullets and "Better with ball ammo". I wanted to see what it took to get the 25-2 to deliver like a K/L frame and I'm satisfied now that this is a reasonable goal.
I have been running around 50 rounds at a time while testing and have no leading. I doubt that I have exceeded 900 FPS but may have on some of the 155 grain loads.
I don't know that any of what I have found will work for others, but don't give up looking for a load due to a large throat size.
Mike

 

[Denny Crane]

How are you measuring your throats? If you can shoot .452 lead bullets at ANY velocity/brinell rating with no leading I have to think your throats are not as big as you think?

Mine (.458) is a leaded up mess no matter what lead/powder combination with .452 bullets. After only one round you can see the leading. It only makes sense that the hot gases are blowing by the bullet in the throat. I tried fast/slow powders, fast/slow velocities. No combination would obturate a .452 lead bullet.

.451 jacketed bullets avoid the leading but accuracy is even worse. (In Ransom Rest)

I missed out on a like new .453 cylinder on GB the other day for about $80. Da**

 

[mstuhr]

Measure

Hi DC,
I measure the widest part best I can with a caliper. I keep it as square as I can and expect I'm close to correct. You can see how I do it in the pictures.
I don't know that I am driving any of them hard enough to lead. I shot some of the 155s w/ 6.0 231 but they are a good hard cast bullet and I would guess that load around 950-1000 fps.
I looked it over pretty good today because of the backwards bullets. I was half expecting them to melt or act funny. After 40 rounds of various loads I'd have to call the leading minor if any.
Are you talking barrel leading? The throats are more messy than the barrel but nothing to worry about. They do show more than the barrel which shows little or nothing. There is nothing in either that wont easily brush out.
Thanks
Mike

 

[Ron H.]

I have a friend who has been shooting for at least 35 years, has at least 40 pistols who was telling me his 25-2 is very pickey about the ammo that goes through it. I was looking into finding one, but although he liked his, he didn't care for it that much. He said the only ammo it liked was a lower grain wadcutter, shooting typical ball it was terrible. Having seen him shoot consistant 2.5 inch groups at 50 yards, it had me wondering. From what I have been reading on these and other forums, the 25-2 was a great gun and very accurate too, but I haven't seen much mentioned about the ammo used.

What has been your experience?

Sir, I've had only one 25-2, so I wouldn't generalize too much from that, but accuracy was not that particular gun's long suit. It shot "just OK" with factory hardball and poorly with cast-bullet handloads that grouped well in my 1911.

I've had much better accuracy from other Smiths of that same era chambered in .22, .38, .357, or .44.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

 

[boatbum101]

I've had 2 of them & neither would shoot to my expectations . In retrospect maybe I should of tried more things .
Used to be a 2700 shooter named Marty " Babe " Magnan . He only shot S&W revolvers . He made his own grips , cast his own bullets etc . He used to shoot 2600+ regularly . He wore out a Ransom rest testing loads in his 25 . He claimed that anything softer than Linotype would not work . He used an H&G 78 mold , Linotype & would seat bullets deep enough to crimp on the front driving band . Liked Rem 45AR brass , Fed primers. Originally used Dupont 5066 ( no longer made ) , then Win 452AA ( long gone ) , then Scott 453 ( another no longer made ) . He said he got good results with 4.6 W231 . Last I knew he'd changed to 4.6 Green Dot for 50yds & 4.3 Green Dot for 25yds . He would adjust charge weight with each powder lot until he got 825 to 850 fps . Never would tell what he sized to . H&G 78 mold usually drops at 215gr with # 2 alloy & around 204gr with straight Linotype . He also modified a mold to drop @ 175gr ( Linotype ) for 25yd timed / rapid fire as recovery time was less with lighter slugs . Pretty sure this was done by reducing thickness of bullets base . Any way a little history & it sure worked for him . Might be worth a try .

 

[Denny Crane]

Wow! Either "Babe" is now known as "boatbum101" or boatbum has a memory like an old dog! I can't remember my own load stats without pencil and paper let alone another guys with that kind of detail!

Mike,

It's hard enough to take accurate throat measurements with the proper tools (example Amazon.com: Starrett S831EZ Small Hole Gauges Set (4 Pieces ): Industrial & Scientific ) and near impossible using the calipers.

Try this. First clean the cylinder really good using a stiff bronze brush and any cleaner such as Hoppes #9. You can even chuck the brush in your drill as long as you only use it on the cylinder. There can be some really hard deposits of carbon/lead.

When satisfied all holes are clean try dropping a .452 lead bullet through the holes. Try a .451. Do they fall through with only gravity? .451 does but the .452 doesn't? Have to push it just a little with a rod?

If the .452 falls through with gravity only then the throats are without doubt oversized.

If you are not seeing leading in the first 1-2" of the bore after shooting .452 lead bullets the odds are your throats are not grossly oversized.

 

[mstuhr]

Howdy

Hi folks,
Thanks Boatbum, looks like interesting data. The two loads I have found best in my 25 are right near the 4.6 231, although one is a soft bullet.
I think I'm done looking and have found what I needed to enjoy the 25-2.
My next trip to the range will be to shoot a ten shot group of the backwards loaded 155 grain bullets. In the event they prove the first five shot group to be a fluke I will post the results. I thank you all for sharing and allowing me to share my findings with you.
Thanks and Merry Christmas!
Mike

 

[brnoczech]

I have a 25-2 that I bought in essentially unfired condition that has cylinder throats in the .457 range. I have settled on two loads. The first is with Mt. Baldy 270 grain 45 SAA, BH of 11, 5.5 grains of Unique. This is approx 840 fps and I have a ten shot group at 25 yards of 1 7/8". The hunting load is the same bullet sold by Montana Bullet works, BH of 15, 5.9 grains of Universal (Clays), for approx. 900 fps. Both bullets sized .453. This groups 10 in 2". These bullets sized .454 do not shoot as well. The bore in my gun measures .425. Bryan Pearce in Handloader has recommended this particular bullet for guns with oversize throats. I have also read recommendations for using soft swaged bullets but haven't tried that yet. These loads are very easy going and fun to shoot. The loads have all been in Remington 45 AR brass with federal primers.

 

[M29since14]

Mike, I was looking at your picture again and I remember ONE time I got a group like that using the old short Keith design bullet (the version I was using was an H&G #502) and some charge or other of WW 231. I was so excited I fired another group and it was terrible, so I just attributed that to poor shooting on my part owing to the giddiness of actually having a 1955 print a decent target! I put the gun and loads away and tried it again next week. Results: 4 in a nice group and one flier out a couple inches. Another group - same thing. Another - same thing, maybe with 2 fliers, I can't recall. So I guessed that that one lonely group was just a fluke and I put the gun and shells away, marked myself done with ever trying to get a 1955 to shoot that well again, and haven't bothered either one since then.

I did make up a new front sight for the gun, to correct a POA-POI problem (so I wouldn't have to change out the rear blade and thus destroy the old-style adjusting screw). It still needs 0.010" ground off the top. Just a bit too tall.

I have never seen an S&W revolver that was more of a pain in the neck than a 1955, but I am told the early production versions of the Model 647s were right up there with them. I have never owned one of those. 1955s would be great guns if they would just shoot like that picture of yours.

 

[TDC]

Um.... if any of you frustrated guys want to part with your poor shooting 25-2's for an appropriate price I'm in the market... If you can't find a useful loading formula to make them shoot they are of little value to some of you...

Please e-mail or PM a description and any factory or other accessories included, as well as your best price...

Thanks!

 

[Hamden]

Wow! Either "Babe" is now known as "boatbum101" or boatbum has a memory like an old dog! I can't remember my own load stats without pencil and paper let alone another guys with that kind of detail!

Mike,

It's hard enough to take accurate throat measurements with the proper tools (example Amazon.com: Starrett S831EZ Small Hole Gauges Set (4 Pieces ): Industrial & Scientific ) and near impossible using the calipers.

Try this. First clean the cylinder really good using a stiff bronze brush and any cleaner such as Hoppes #9. You can even chuck the brush in your drill as long as you only use it on the cylinder. There can be some really hard deposits of carbon/lead.

When satisfied all holes are clean try dropping a .452 lead bullet through the holes. Try a .451. Do they fall through with only gravity? .451 does but the .452 doesn't? Have to push it just a little with a rod?

If the .452 falls through with gravity only then the throats are without doubt oversized.

If you are not seeing leading in the first 1-2" of the bore after shooting .452 lead bullets the odds are your throats are not grossly oversized.

Fatten a swaged bullet some with a few taps on the nose with a hammer. Slug the throats as usual.

 

[mstuhr]

Fluke alert

Howdy,
Well,I'd like to report that the 155 grain load held up over ten shots.
I got out this morning and it is OK. Just OK.
Seven of the ten looked like the five shot group posted earlier, but three opened it up to near 2 3/4" inch. I felt like I was shooting better than that.
Also, I had a little extra ammo with me and shot five at 50 from a rest and was unable to hold the black on a fifty yard bullseye target with them. Heck, I can hold in the black at fifty one handed standing with a good load and gun.
They don't hold up at fifty and are just OK at 25.
I think the swaged bullet load is a better load as it is consistent 1 3/4"- 2" load at 25.
Lesson learned, I should not let five rounds get my hopes up.
I might bump em' up a little and and see what happens.
Thanks and sorry, I really wanted these to work.
Mike