Model 29-3 unlocking problem?

[one eye joe]

I zapped the cylinder stop with a quick shot of carb cleaner since it completely evaporates, and then some compressed air, followed by a generous helping of Hoppe’s gun oil. I hope to ops test it at the range late next week. Fingers crossed!

I WOULD BLOW THE GENEROUSLY OILED GUN OUT, WITH COMPRESSED AIR, AS WELL, BEFORE LETTING IT SIT FOR A LONG TIME......

GOOD LUCK, AT THE RANGE......

 

[Mike0251]

Here is an inspection guide as well. I would recommend that you check all of this out. You can google any particular measurement to get a better feel as to how to do it if needed. I sent a 29-2 to the factory with a binding issue after it was fired 3 times. The cylinder would not rotate freely when the hammer was cocked. They worked on it, cost me $150 and damn if if it still did it when I got it back. So I measured everything 3 times myself and determined the barrel to cylinder gap was too much (.009 which was S&W's new spec as they had increase it over the years). I bought some cylinder shims, set the gap to .004, verified everything else was good, and the gun functions perfectly. And I did it! Find a quiet place and check everything as listed in the inspection guide and then take her apart and look it over closely. That video posted above is an excellent resource. If you find the issue and it requires an armorer to correct, then send it back to S&W and let them know what you think it might be. In the meantime you now know the N frame real good. Good luck.

 

[BigBill]

First I pull the side plate on all my smiths when they get home. I clean them squeaky clean then lube them with a moly paste or antiseeze. All the metal to metal contact moving parts get lubed. Do not over lube it. Then I assemble the revolver and run the action while watching tv about 50 to 100 times.

The cylinder lockup might not be fully engaging too. Oil when it gets old looks like freckling and can get sticky. Remove the side plate clean it good.

I like to fix things myself. I modified my own 1911

 

[Pantera Mike]

Thanks for the advice everybody. I could have spent several hours poking around inside my Model 29 today, but instead I took it to a local gunsmith with a great Yelp reputation. Upon hearing the symptoms, he surmised that it probably needed a cylinder stop spring and perhaps some fitting. (He will have it fixed in a couple of weeks. I will report back about what he found and how well his efforts paid off).

Then I went to the range and spent all afternoon shooting.

 

[gscrasher]

Sounds like your problem was discussed here.

Model 29 changes (29-1, 29-2, etc) when was cylinder recoil problem fixed?

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Check for end-shake

So I measured everything 3 times myself and determined the barrel to cylinder gap was too much (.009 which was S&W's new spec as they had increase it over the years). I bought some cylinder shims, set the gap to .004, verified everything else was good, and the gun functions perfectly. And I did it!

I agree with Mike on this. Specifically what you need to check for is too much "end-shake", which also shows up in (adds to) the barrel gap. Check to see how much forward to rearwards play you have in the cylinder. If it's excessive the cylinder will come unlocked from the stop bolt as the cylinder moves under recoil. Eliminate that play & the unlocking stops.

My 29-2 got little respect when I was younger & it saw it's fair share of hot loads. In later years I started having the unlocking problem too & I found it had about .005" end-shake. A couple .002" shims tightened it up & fixed the problem.

The early 29's didn't have the wider stop notches that the later one's had (with the Endurance Package) & they can come unlocked easier.

From Handloader #241, an article on "Handloading the S&W M29" by Brian Pearce:

"When shot extensively with full-house loads, they have a reputation for shooting loose, developing excess cylinder end-shake and side-play.
...when Model 29s and 629s developed excess cylinder end-shake, or were incorrectly fit, their cylinders were occasionally known to unlock and turn clockwise (or back-ward) one chamber while the gun was being fired and recoiling."

.

I limit the hot stuff to my 629-6 nowadays.

Hope you get it fixed & can enjoy it again.

.

.

 

[Pantera Mike]

Thanks! I passed this latest advice on to the gunsmith who expressed his thanks as well....

 

[yfdcap]

I have had this problem in the past. Fixing end shake, a good cleaning and replacement of cylinder stop spring did it for me. I went with heavier spring though not sure if it did any good. I think end shake was the biggest culprit. I currently have ten -2 or older 29's and do not have this problem with any of them. I do not shoot much over 240 grain at 1100 fps in any of them. My late models get the hot stuff if needed these days. Really not needed though for me.

 

[Pantera Mike]

All,

An update to my problem—the gunsmith found and removed some unwanted end shake, and also fitted an oversized cylinder stop by Power Custom that he sourced from Brownells.

I loaded up ammo and range gear in the car then drove 45 minutes to pick it up (total cost $115) then another 30 minutes or so to the range. The weather was perfect, and I was the ONLY person at the outdoor shooting range (which has about 75-80 firing points), so I was quite pleased....

....until I reached into my range bag and pulled out box after box of .357 Magnum ammo—with not a single .357 Magnum revolver in sight!

Fortunately I had my Colt Delta Elite 10mm Auto with me, which I hadn’t fired in 15 years or more. So I had a grand time with that. But I will have to wait until next week to find out if my Model 29 is well and truly fixed. Next time I will ONLY be shooting .44 Mag and will double-check to be sure I bring the right ammo with me! Duh!

 

[Coaltminer]

Model 29-3 unlocking Problem

I'm to agree with Mike0251. With too much end shake would allow the cylinder stop not to make full contact with the cylinder notch not to make full contact with the cylinder bolt. Check cylinder gap and add shims to make it tighter, this would help the bolt make full contact with the cylinder notch. It's not hard to DIY. Just don't loose the little spring in front of the bolt. I'd also install a stronger bolt spring while I'm at it. No springs will fly out if you remove the slide plate if you remove the side plate and gently tap the handle until the side plate comes loose. Check to see how the parts fit together and reassemble. Never FORCE anything!

 

[HamHands]

If that doesn't do it, the next suggestion would be a new, stronger Wolff cylinder stop spring.

I got a new stop from Power Custom's I believe it was. Quality part(s). OP if you are familiar with the insides of the side plate then replacing the cylinder stop, filing it barely enough to fit the smallest cylinder stop cut, and replacing the spring I would opt for that rather than sending it in. However, that's not for everyone and that is fine and I would send her back with a detailed letter/note.

ETA: just saw where you took her to a local Smith. Let us know the fix when you get her back! I got my 629 3" for woods carry and bought it partly because it locks up so nicely; and upon the advice of a long time .44magnum shooter/carry nut.

 

[HamHands]

Here is an inspection guide as well. I would recommend that you check all of this out. You can google any particular measurement to get a better feel as to how to do it if needed. I sent a 29-2 to the factory with a binding issue after it was fired 3 times. The cylinder would not rotate freely when the hammer was cocked. They worked on it, cost me $150 and damn if if it still did it when I got it back. So I measured everything 3 times myself and determined the barrel to cylinder gap was too much (.009 which was S&W's new spec as they had increase it over the years). I bought some cylinder shims, set the gap to .004, verified everything else was good, and the gun functions perfectly. And I did it! Find a quiet place and check everything as listed in the inspection guide and then take her apart and look it over closely. That video posted above is an excellent resource. If you find the issue and it requires an armorer to correct, then send it back to S&W and let them know what you think it might be. In the meantime you now know the N frame real good. Good luck.

I'm glad you fixed your own end shake... awesome actually! As to the emboldened... what exactly did Smith&Wesson charge you $150 bones for? They have been great over the last 20 years I've owned/inherited Smith & Wesson revolvers and semi-auto's. They are one of the only companies that will issue an RMA number and pay for shipping both ways on S&W's dime. Springfield will do it too. I've never heard of Smith acting so on a new firearm of any type. Tagged for interest!

 

[Pantera Mike]

An update:

I’m not out of the woods yet. I went to the range with two boxes of intermediate-power ammo (240 gr SWC, 18.0 grains of 2400) and one box of full power ammo (240 gr JHP, 24.0 grains of 296)

I started off with the SWC and had one misfire in the first chamber—the sixth round failed to fire as the cylinder had unlocked and rotated backwards one. But I then fired about 70 more rounds with no problems.

I then switched to the full power rounds and had two failures in the first six rounds. When the fourth round fired it unlocked and rotated backwards one, and the same thing happened when the fifth round fired.

I packed up and brought it back to the gunsmith for further troubleshooting.

 

[Pantera Mike]

Rats.

Just picked it up from the gunsmith this morning. He fitted a heavier recoil spring (which increased the trigger pull noticeably) and he fired about 40 rounds with no failures (using ammo I supplied). I immediately took it to the range and fired one box of intermediate-level .44 Mag and one box of full-power ammo. All my firing was done single action, with about 25 rounds from a sandbag rest (only the barrel touching the sandbags) andnthe rest standing offhand.

I had four failures in those 100 rounds, with two with each kind of ammo. The cylinder unlocked under recoil (unnoticed at the time of firing) and rotated one position. If it rotated backwards, then the next pull of the hammer/trigger resulted in the hammer striking the chamber that had just been fired. If it skipped forward, the failure would initially go unnoticed until a previously fired round arrived in the firing position. In that case, the round that had been skipped might be found at the six o’clock position, or somewhere else.

Frustrating.

He’s determined to fix this, and isn’t charging me anything additional, but it’s still a nuisance having to bring it back (he is about 30 minutes away from home).

To reiterate, he has fitted an oversized cylinder stop, extra strength cylinder stop spring, and now a stronger recoil spring. This pistol did have a trigger job done when almost new. Could the trigger itself be contributing to the problem?

 

[BLUEDOT37]

To reiterate, he has fitted an oversized cylinder stop, extra strength cylinder stop spring, and now a stronger recoil spring. This pistol did have a trigger job done when almost new. Could the trigger itself be contributing to the problem?

As I mentioned above, have you verified you don't have excessive endshake? Repairing that fixed mine & other's.

I think you mean rebound (slide) spring, not recoil spring, right?

.

 

[Pantera Mike]

As I mentioned above, have you verified you don't have excessive endshake? Repairing that fixed mine & other's.

I think you mean rebound (slide) spring, not recoil spring, right?

.

Thanks—I forgot to mention that he also removed all endshake first time around. It seems to lock up much more tightly now.

He may have called it a rebound spring. I thought it odd that there would be a ‘recoil spring’ in a revolver.

 

[Mike0251]

I'm glad you fixed your own end shake...what exactly did Smith&Wesson charge you $150 bones for? !

They replaced a missing extractor pin that fell out? (no charge), the cylinder stop which is now a MIM part (I have no issue with MIM), replaced the cylinder hand, and timed and test fired the gun. No shims were added to decrease end shake. If they test fired it 3 times or less they would fail to see the issue which I assume is what happened. I am glad they replaced these parts which I assume they needed to be and also thankful in the end that I had to further diagnose the issue on my own as it benefited my knowledge and skill set.

 

[Pantera Mike]

I’m still struggling here. Gunsmith installed new rebound spring (again) and new cylinder stop spring. I then experienced four skips in 50 rounds.

However I’m further ahead than I was. The premise has always been that the gun is unlocking and cylinder rotating under recoil. Sitting on the couch and examining it, with three rounds in the left three chambers and the right-side chambers empty, I could get it to skip simply by slowly cocking the hammer!

It seems that there is a sweet spot (or more accurately a sour spot) where the cylinder stop unlocks, but the hand is not touching the back of the cylinder yet. When the hammer is in that spot, I can freely spin the cylinder around and around. In contrast, my 629 hand touches the cylinder and when the hammer is in a corresponding place, the cylinder can be rotated manually but there is felt resistance and an audible clicking sound as the hand skips over the protrusions on the back of the cylinder.

Timing, I believe it’s called.

I suspect now that I have identified the problem, it can be fixed easily enough. Fingers crossed!

 

[Laketime]

I zapped the cylinder stop with a quick shot of carb cleaner since it completely evaporates, and then some compressed air, followed by a generous helping of Hoppe’s gun oil. I hope to ops test it at the range late next week. Fingers crossed!

Switch your oil to Remington for the internals. It evoperates and does not turn to sludge and leaves behind a thin Teflon coating.

 

[Mike0251]

Run through this test again and see what occurs:

Timing: Basically, timing is the sequence of events that happen when you begin to pull the trigger in Double Action (DA) mode or to cock and fire in Single Action (SA) mode. A full timing sequence for DA and SA is included in the addendum. Timing problems can be costly so pay good attention to your testing.

This test deals with carry-up, meaning when the cylinder locks into the cylinder stop as the hammer is cocked.

Slowly cock the hammer in SA mode. Watch the cylinder stop located in the lower frame under the bottom of the cylinder. The cylinder stop should lock into the cylinder’s notch at or before the hammer reaches the cocking sear. Test all chambers.
Is this where your issue is?

In DA mode, slowly squeeze the trigger and watch the cylinder stop. It should lock into the cylinder before or just as the hammer drops. Test all chambers.

Lock-up: This test will indicate the condition of the cylinder stop, hand and ratchets. A vault solid lock-up is not necessary however excess cylinder play is not good. The test condition puts the gun in the same position as when it is fired. Test all chambers.

Dry fire in DA mode then hold the trigger all the way back. Hold the cylinder and gently try to rotate it clockwise and counter clockwise. A few thousands of free movement is normal. Excessive movement indicates a problem.