Model 29-3 unlocking problem?

[HamHands]

If that doesn't do it, the next suggestion would be a new, stronger Wolff cylinder stop spring.

I got a new stop from Power Custom's I believe it was. Quality part(s). OP if you are familiar with the insides of the side plate then replacing the cylinder stop, filing it barely enough to fit the smallest cylinder stop cut, and replacing the spring I would opt for that rather than sending it in. However, that's not for everyone and that is fine and I would send her back with a detailed letter/note.

ETA: just saw where you took her to a local Smith. Let us know the fix when you get her back! I got my 629 3" for woods carry and bought it partly because it locks up so nicely; and upon the advice of a long time .44magnum shooter/carry nut.

 

[HamHands]

Here is an inspection guide as well. I would recommend that you check all of this out. You can google any particular measurement to get a better feel as to how to do it if needed. I sent a 29-2 to the factory with a binding issue after it was fired 3 times. The cylinder would not rotate freely when the hammer was cocked. They worked on it, cost me $150 and damn if if it still did it when I got it back. So I measured everything 3 times myself and determined the barrel to cylinder gap was too much (.009 which was S&W's new spec as they had increase it over the years). I bought some cylinder shims, set the gap to .004, verified everything else was good, and the gun functions perfectly. And I did it! Find a quiet place and check everything as listed in the inspection guide and then take her apart and look it over closely. That video posted above is an excellent resource. If you find the issue and it requires an armorer to correct, then send it back to S&W and let them know what you think it might be. In the meantime you now know the N frame real good. Good luck.

I'm glad you fixed your own end shake... awesome actually! As to the emboldened... what exactly did Smith&Wesson charge you $150 bones for? They have been great over the last 20 years I've owned/inherited Smith & Wesson revolvers and semi-auto's. They are one of the only companies that will issue an RMA number and pay for shipping both ways on S&W's dime. Springfield will do it too. I've never heard of Smith acting so on a new firearm of any type. Tagged for interest!

 

[Pantera Mike]

An update:

I'm not out of the woods yet. I went to the range with two boxes of intermediate-power ammo (240 gr SWC, 18.0 grains of 2400) and one box of full power ammo (240 gr JHP, 24.0 grains of 296)

I started off with the SWC and had one misfire in the first chamber—the sixth round failed to fire as the cylinder had unlocked and rotated backwards one. But I then fired about 70 more rounds with no problems.

I then switched to the full power rounds and had two failures in the first six rounds. When the fourth round fired it unlocked and rotated backwards one, and the same thing happened when the fifth round fired.

I packed up and brought it back to the gunsmith for further troubleshooting.

 

[Pantera Mike]

Rats.

Just picked it up from the gunsmith this morning. He fitted a heavier recoil spring (which increased the trigger pull noticeably) and he fired about 40 rounds with no failures (using ammo I supplied). I immediately took it to the range and fired one box of intermediate-level .44 Mag and one box of full-power ammo. All my firing was done single action, with about 25 rounds from a sandbag rest (only the barrel touching the sandbags) andnthe rest standing offhand.

I had four failures in those 100 rounds, with two with each kind of ammo. The cylinder unlocked under recoil (unnoticed at the time of firing) and rotated one position. If it rotated backwards, then the next pull of the hammer/trigger resulted in the hammer striking the chamber that had just been fired. If it skipped forward, the failure would initially go unnoticed until a previously fired round arrived in the firing position. In that case, the round that had been skipped might be found at the six o'clock position, or somewhere else.

Frustrating.

He's determined to fix this, and isn't charging me anything additional, but it's still a nuisance having to bring it back (he is about 30 minutes away from home).

To reiterate, he has fitted an oversized cylinder stop, extra strength cylinder stop spring, and now a stronger recoil spring. This pistol did have a trigger job done when almost new. Could the trigger itself be contributing to the problem?

 

[BLUEDOT37]

To reiterate, he has fitted an oversized cylinder stop, extra strength cylinder stop spring, and now a stronger recoil spring. This pistol did have a trigger job done when almost new. Could the trigger itself be contributing to the problem?

As I mentioned above, have you verified you don't have excessive endshake? Repairing that fixed mine & other's.

I think you mean rebound (slide) spring, not recoil spring, right?

.

 

[Pantera Mike]

As I mentioned above, have you verified you don't have excessive endshake? Repairing that fixed mine & other's.

I think you mean rebound (slide) spring, not recoil spring, right?

.

Thanks—I forgot to mention that he also removed all endshake first time around. It seems to lock up much more tightly now.

He may have called it a rebound spring. I thought it odd that there would be a 'recoil spring' in a revolver.

 

[Mike0251]

I'm glad you fixed your own end shake...what exactly did Smith&Wesson charge you $150 bones for? !

They replaced a missing extractor pin that fell out? (no charge), the cylinder stop which is now a MIM part (I have no issue with MIM), replaced the cylinder hand, and timed and test fired the gun. No shims were added to decrease end shake. If they test fired it 3 times or less they would fail to see the issue which I assume is what happened. I am glad they replaced these parts which I assume they needed to be and also thankful in the end that I had to further diagnose the issue on my own as it benefited my knowledge and skill set.

 

[Pantera Mike]

I'm still struggling here. Gunsmith installed new rebound spring (again) and new cylinder stop spring. I then experienced four skips in 50 rounds.

However I'm further ahead than I was. The premise has always been that the gun is unlocking and cylinder rotating under recoil. Sitting on the couch and examining it, with three rounds in the left three chambers and the right-side chambers empty, I could get it to skip simply by slowly cocking the hammer!

It seems that there is a sweet spot (or more accurately a sour spot) where the cylinder stop unlocks, but the hand is not touching the back of the cylinder yet. When the hammer is in that spot, I can freely spin the cylinder around and around. In contrast, my 629 hand touches the cylinder and when the hammer is in a corresponding place, the cylinder can be rotated manually but there is felt resistance and an audible clicking sound as the hand skips over the protrusions on the back of the cylinder.

Timing, I believe it's called.

I suspect now that I have identified the problem, it can be fixed easily enough. Fingers crossed!

 

[Laketime]

I zapped the cylinder stop with a quick shot of carb cleaner since it completely evaporates, and then some compressed air, followed by a generous helping of Hoppe's gun oil. I hope to ops test it at the range late next week. Fingers crossed!

Switch your oil to Remington for the internals. It evoperates and does not turn to sludge and leaves behind a thin Teflon coating.

 

[Mike0251]

Run through this test again and see what occurs:

Timing: Basically, timing is the sequence of events that happen when you begin to pull the trigger in Double Action (DA) mode or to cock and fire in Single Action (SA) mode. A full timing sequence for DA and SA is included in the addendum. Timing problems can be costly so pay good attention to your testing.

This test deals with carry-up, meaning when the cylinder locks into the cylinder stop as the hammer is cocked.

Slowly cock the hammer in SA mode. Watch the cylinder stop located in the lower frame under the bottom of the cylinder. The cylinder stop should lock into the cylinder's notch at or before the hammer reaches the cocking sear. Test all chambers.
Is this where your issue is?

In DA mode, slowly squeeze the trigger and watch the cylinder stop. It should lock into the cylinder before or just as the hammer drops. Test all chambers.

Lock-up: This test will indicate the condition of the cylinder stop, hand and ratchets. A vault solid lock-up is not necessary however excess cylinder play is not good. The test condition puts the gun in the same position as when it is fired. Test all chambers.

Dry fire in DA mode then hold the trigger all the way back. Hold the cylinder and gently try to rotate it clockwise and counter clockwise. A few thousands of free movement is normal. Excessive movement indicates a problem.

 

[vonn]

Interesting thread,I have found that trying to check things going very slowly can lead to false readings. Does the problem occur in double action or single action or both? Keep us posted.

 

[Mike0251]

Here is the addendum info mentioned in the post above:

Single Action Cycle

As the hammer is being cocked:
1. Trigger begins to move to the rear.
2. Cylinder stop is pulled down, releasing the cylinder.
3. The hand engages the extractor ratchet and begins to rotate the cylinder CCW.
4. Cylinder stop is released and snaps up to ride on the cylinder.
5. Cylinder stop engages the cylinder notch.
6. Hand cams off of the extractor ratchet.
7. Hammer reaches the cocking point and is held to the rear by the SA sear.

As the trigger is pulled:
7. Trigger moves to the rear raising the hand up to lock the cylinder in place.
8. SA sear releases the hammer.
9. Hammer moves forward.
10. Firing pin enters the frame hole and is diverted slightly upward.
10A. Or hammer strikes the frame mounted firing pin.
11. Firing pin strikes the primer causing the gun to fire.

As the trigger is released:
12. Trigger begins to move forward.
13. Hammer begins to move to the rear, pulling the firing pin out of the frame hole.
13A. Or the frame mounted firing pin fully retracts.
14. Hammer fully retracted and rests on the rebound slide.
15. Cylinder stop resets.
16. Hand resets.
17. Trigger is fully forward and at rest.

Double Action Cycle

1. Trigger is pulled and begins to move to the rear.
2. Hammer begins to move to the rear.
3. Cylinder stop is pulled down, releasing the cylinder.
4. Hand moves up and begins to rotate the cylinder CCW.
5. Cylinder stop is released and rides on the cylinder.
6. Trigger and hammer continue to move to the rear.
7. Cylinder stop engages the cylinder notch.
8. Double action sear releases the hammer.
9. Trigger moves to the rear causing the hand to cam off the extractor ratchet and lock the cylinder.
10. Hammer moves forward until the firing pin strikes the primer, causing the gun to fire.

The trigger is released and follows the same reset cycle as in Single Action.

 

[Pantera Mike]

Thanks—the problem occurs between steps 2 and 3 in the single action description above. I rarely shoot double action but it does it in both single and double action. I just fired it again today and it skipped once in about 40 rounds.

More to follow....

 

[Pantera Mike]

I'm happy to report the problem is finally fixed (or so it seems). All the screwing around with springs and oversized cylinder stops etc was apparently unnecessary. The gunsmith simply added some 'drag' to the cylinder to make it just slightly resistant to turning, and now it functions perfectly.

In the meantime my nice trigger job has been somewhat undone, so I may have him reinstall the rebound spring that was in it when this all started. At least it's a solid shooter now though!

Thanks to all for the advice and wisdom.....

 

[Bobafett]

If that doesn't do it, the next suggestion would be a new, stronger Wolff cylinder stop spring.

+1 had the same problem with an old model 29 (i forget what dash it was but it had recessed chambers)

 

[HamHands]

They replaced a missing extractor pin that fell out? (no charge), the cylinder stop which is now a MIM part (I have no issue with MIM), replaced the cylinder hand, and timed and test fired the gun. No shims were added to decrease end shake. If they test fired it 3 times or less they would fail to see the issue which I assume is what happened. I am glad they replaced these parts which I assume they needed to be and also thankful in the end that I had to further diagnose the issue on my own as it benefited my knowledge and skill set.

Just seeing this now. That sucks and I'm ashamed S&W charged you anything at all. If you've bothered to keep the estimate/charge receipt then I'm sure you didn't abuse your revolver and all charges should have been covered. Sorry you had to pay anything!

 

[BillyMagg]

Here is an interesting development. I wrote to Sand Burr Gun Ranch (Denny Reichard) and described my problem and asked if they could help. This is their reply:

"Sorry the only way to shoot that gun is to shoot light loads of 1000 feet or less...heavy loads are no more...best to keep princess in safe...that it why all of the new models have all the enhancements...wish we could be of more help....Sand Burr Gun Ranch"

So I guess everyone here who shoots a Model 29 made more than a couple of weeks ago should immediately hang it on the wall and never shoot it again. Or so they seem to think!

Time to find another gunsmith I think!!!

Yep, they don't want to mess with it, and have it come back, send it back to Smith and Wesson, when it comes back shoot it some more, if it continues to have an issue, send it back again..

There's nothing wrong with that design,, but it does need to all work as slik as a baby's butt to function.

Well that's what happens when you don't read every post in a thread before posting, that was quite an ordeal,,, but that's why the other gun smith didn't want to mess wit it?? LOL

 

[HamHands]

I'm happy to report the problem is finally fixed (or so it seems). All the screwing around with springs and oversized cylinder stops etc was apparently unnecessary. The gunsmith simply added some 'drag' to the cylinder to make it just slightly resistant to turning, and now it functions perfectly.

In the meantime my nice trigger job has been somewhat undone, so I may have him reinstall the rebound spring that was in it when this all started. At least it's a solid shooter now though!

Thanks to all for the advice and wisdom.....

Can you elaborate on what the Smith did to increase the "Cylinder Drag?"

Glad you got it fixed. I wouldn't undo anything your Smith did until I had 500 trouble free rounds thru her OP. Then when you do decide to change anything do one change at a time, variable wise just to be sure...

 

[notsofast]

Can you elaborate on what the Smith did to increase the "Cylinder Drag?"

Please do tell us about how "cylinder drag" was adjusted?

 

[Bangler]

After reading a lot of this thread, I've decided that I won't be sending any of my Smith revolvers to Sand Burr Gun Ranch for tuning. I was actually considering them. Nope.

 

[JDinAZ]

Can you elaborate on what the Smith did to increase the "Cylinder Drag?"

Please do tell us about how "cylinder drag" was adjusted?

Following....
OP when you get a chance let us know about this "drag" thing. Hope you didn't go shoot it this weekend and have a round go off out of battery.
Strange. The original problem sounds like failure to index "carry up" since it does it for you in SA. FTCU can allow the cyl to rotate back to the previous cyl stop position. A weak cyl stop spring can do the same thing after the round goes off.

Adding "drag" would tell me the cylinder is still unlocking so the issue is not correctly fixed. Adding "force" as in additional spring strength I would buy into. Or mechanical adjustment would fly too.

My suspicion... Probably stacked up end shake shims till the cyl started to bind a bit. Bad "fix" if that's what was done. If the gun is still having an indexing issue. Additional "drag" does not fix a mechanical unlocking situation all it would do is attempt to keep an unlocked cylinder in position while the hammer drops. The cyl either locks in or it doesn't. If it doesn't I wouldn't shoot that gun.

Sit and dry cycle it for a while, at the same time trying to turn the cylinder by hand during and after each trigger pull to make sure the cylinder is LOCKED in place on each cylinder stop notch.

If it rotates off the cylinder stop or hand you still have a problem

 

[R*E]

I don't understand why the OP didn't send it back to the mothership a one more time.

 

[Pantera Mike]

For starters it costs over $100 to ship it there. But more importantly they had pronounced it 'fixed' the first time and didn't improve things one bit. I'm not about to ship it to them three or four more times to get it right.

As it is, I had to bring it back to my local gunsmith three or four times before *I* figured out the problem, and he fixed it.

I will call him tomorrow to ask him exactly what he did to induce drag in the cylinder. It feels normal to me now. I guess before it had been completely slicked up as part of the trigger job and was TOO slick for reliable functioning....

 

[Pantera Mike]

Following....
OP when you get a chance let us know about this "drag" thing. Hope you didn't go shoot it this weekend and have a round go off out of battery.
Strange. The original problem sounds like failure to index "carry up" since it does it for you in SA. FTCU can allow the cyl to rotate back to the previous cyl stop position. A weak cyl stop spring can do the same thing after the round goes off.

Adding "drag" would tell me the cylinder is still unlocking so the issue is not correctly fixed. Adding "force" as in additional spring strength I would buy into. Or mechanical adjustment would fly too.

My suspicion... Probably stacked up end shake shims till the cyl started to bind a bit. Bad "fix" if that's what was done. If the gun is still having an indexing issue. Additional "drag" does not fix a mechanical unlocking situation all it would do is attempt to keep an unlocked cylinder in position while the hammer drops. The cyl either locks in or it doesn't. If it doesn't I wouldn't shoot that gun.

Sit and dry cycle it for a while, at the same time trying to turn the cylinder by hand during and after each trigger pull to make sure the cylinder is LOCKED in place on each cylinder stop notch.

If it rotates off the cylinder stop or hand you still have a problem

To be clear, the gun is not, and never was unlocking during firing. This whole time that was my belief, but I was mistaken. I finally discovered that the gun was malfunctioning during the cocking phase (single or double action). When the hammer was drawn to the rear and the hand was indexing the cylinder to the next chamber, occasionally the cylinder would simply spin two or even three chambers on its own. It was no longer locked, and the hand didn't have enough drag to keep it from freely spinning when it was imbalanced (with three empty chambers and three loaded chambers). Eventually as the hammer neared the rearmost part of its travel, the cylinder would lock up and the gun would fire normally.

The malfunction manifested when the cylinder would spin past an unfired chamber, and wind up presenting an already-fired cartridge, resulting in a big CLICK when the trigger was pulled....

 

[Bobafett]

To be clear, the gun is not, and never was unlocking during firing. This whole time that was my belief, but I was mistaken. I finally discovered that the gun was malfunctioning during the cocking phase (single or double action). When the hammer was drawn to the rear and the hand was indexing the cylinder to the next chamber, occasionally the cylinder would simply spin two or even three chambers on its own. It was no longer locked, and the hand didn't have enough drag to keep it from freely spinning when it was imbalanced (with three empty chambers and three loaded chambers). Eventually as the hammer neared the rearmost part of its travel, the cylinder would lock up and the gun would fire normally.

The malfunction manifested when the cylinder would spin past an unfired chamber, and wind up presenting an already-fired cartridge, resulting in a big CLICK when the trigger was pulled....

this still means the cylinder stop wasnt working properly

 

[Pantera Mike]

this still means the cylinder stop wasnt working properly

The cylinder stop doesn't raise back up until the hammer is partway back during the cocking cycle. Well-used guns will have scoring on the cylinder where the stop drags against it. But those marks don't run from one notch to the next. Normally the stop doesn't rise up to touch the cylinder until the hammer is at least 30% or more through its travel. There is no contact for the first part of rearward hammer travel, and that is where the cylinder was rotating.

I have several other Smith revolvers, and experimented with them. If you slowly cock the hammer while attempting to turn the cylinder counterclockwise with your other hand, all of them will allow it and you can turn the cylinder freely. It's just the way the mechanism works.

 

[Bobafett]

The cylinder stop doesn't raise back up until the hammer is partway back during the cocking cycle. Well-used guns will have scoring on the cylinder where the stop drags against it. But those marks don't run from one notch to the next. Normally the stop doesn't rise up to touch the cylinder until the hammer is at least 30% or more through its travel. There is no contact for the first part of rearward hammer travel, and that is where the cylinder was rotating.

I have several other Smith revolvers, and experimented with them. If you slowly cock the hammer while attempting to turn the cylinder counterclockwise with your other hand, all of them will allow it and you can turn the cylinder freely. It's just the way the mechanism works.

just tried 3 revolvers right in front of me and none rotate freely, sure i can move them out of 'time' but none can i rotate to the next cyl hole. is there no tension on your cyl hand? that should never let go

 

[Pantera Mike]

just tried 3 revolvers right in front of me and none rotate freely, sure i can move them out of 'time' but none can i rotate to the next cyl hole. is there no tension on your cyl hand? that should never let go

You're doing it wrong then.

I just did it with a model 1905, 686, 29 and 629. Try cocking the hammer slowly while watching from the side. When the cylinder stop drops into the frame, the cylinder can spin freely, but of course only in one direction. The hand drags against the cylinder and it clicks as the cylinder rotates. If you are trying to spin against the hand it won't turn. If you spin with the hand, it does.

 

[Bobafett]

You're doing it wrong then.

I just did it with a model 1905, 686, 29 and 629. Try cocking the hammer slowly while watching from the side. When the cylinder stop drops into the frame, the cylinder can spin freely, but of course only in one direction. The hand drags against the cylinder and it clicks as the cylinder rotates. If you are trying to spin against the hand it won't turn. If you spin with the hand, it does.

No i follow you Mike, there is resistance, I'm just not going to force the hand to click off the extractor

 

[Pantera Mike]

No i follow you Mike, there is resistance, I'm just not going to force the hand to click off the extractor

In my particular case, the gun was doing it on its own. I'm no gunsmith but if I had to guess at a fix, I would say the hand needed to be bent outward so that it would more positively engage the back of the cylinder to prevent unwanted gravity-induced rotation. I will find out if indeed that was the fix.

One of the things that stymied the gunsmith was that the gun functioned flawlessly when it was empty. I decided to test my theory by loading three dummy rounds, with 158 gr .357 bullets inside the cases instead of powder. This would exaggerate the weight imbalance between three full and empty chambers, and in this condition, my malfunctioning gun would routinely skip. Meanwhile my 629 worked normally.

It was interesting to watch as I slowly pulled the hammer back on my 29 and heard and saw it go 'click click' as the cylinder rotated on its own. It was a big "A-ha" moment, particularly as all this time we had both assumed it was coming out of battery during recoil.....