Model 41 Dry Fire

[smithra_66]

Browning Buck Marks

Dry Fire Browning Buck Mark | Rimfire Central Firearm Forum

 

[smithra_66]

Masonry ANCHORS. Plastic and hold up better than the brittle plastic .22 cal “snap caps”.

S&W actually used to recommend not to dry fire Model 41’s. Looks like they don’t mention it in the new 41 owners manual. I just looked.

I guess I’m too old and set to feel good about dry firing any of my .22’s. I still remember calling S&W in the mid 1980’s regarding dry firing. The answer was when walking through the revolver assembly area there was a lot of clicking from dry fire. The semi-auto area not so much.

Jim

My fault for typing "screw." I knew you meant the plastic things.

Believe me you're not alone. A lot of people can't bring themselves to do it.

Think about it though...when designing a gun. Would you design a gun that would self destruct by simply operating it? That would be a very bad design that probably wouldn't make it past the first step of R&D.

 

[smithra_66]

Anschuetz rifles do hit the chamber rim for sure...costly mistake.

Even if there is a firing pin stop, eventually that will also peen/wear and ultimately yes, there will be marks developing on the chamber sooner or later.

I dry fire no guns, not 22s, not pistols and not rifles regardless of caliber or anything else. I se not value in doing it and many disadvantages.

Looking around on the Anschuetz boards, they dry fire all the time. Anschuetz rifles are usually used for high level competition.

Do you think an Olympic biathlon shooter doesn't dry fire thousands of times in training? Do you think Anschuetz would be popular equipment for Olympic level shooters if they broke simply by pulling the trigger?

The pros are: You get better at shooting your gun and you win competitions.

The negatives are: You may have to replace a 5 dollar part...probably not, but maybe, possibly, after 20,000 dry fires.

 

[smithra_66]

Here's an excerpt on dry firing from the Canadian National Biathlon team. I'll bet all of these shooters use Anschuetz rifles. Dry fire for a competitive shooter is like doing jumping jacks in the Marines. It's done daily. Do you think they all sit there and fiddle with snap caps? They are practicing running their bolt as well as dry firing.

Discussion: Dry firing has long been accepted as a valid and necessary training
element in biathlon shooting as well as position shooting. This is evidenced from the
volume of dry firing recommended in the Biathlon Canada shooting training manual that
was developed largely by Michel Dion, who is a position shooter and was the head coach,
back in the1980’s. What is often a difficult task is the convincing of athletes that they
should engage in this activity and how much time they should devote to this type of
training. In this investigation 50min. per day was used to achieve the results quoted here
in addition to regular combination training during physical training while preparing for
the races. What is not in question based on this investigation is the fact that all but 2
athletes showed an improvement after engaging in high quality dry firing for a relatively
short period of 12 – 14 days. It should be noted that this investigation is focusing on the
relative improvements of the athletes and not making any judgment of the quality of
their shooting to start out with.
In addition to the measurable accuracy results stated above, it was also observed
that the speed and confidence with which the athletes performed the shooting was far
superior during the Germany tour than during the Canadian Championships. Several of
the athletes commented that they believed this to be due to the dry firing work they were
doing.
The intervention as outlined above, was able to produce these results. However it
is not the position of this paper that this is the only way to produce improvements to
shooting. Rather there are several more important principles at play here.
1. Athletes were spending time with their rifles
2. Athletes were engaging in visualization practice
3. Athletes were engaging in focused dry fire activity with no distraction
4. Athletes had a clear purpose to each exercise
5. Athletes were awake and physically primed for each session
Conclusion: It is hoped that everyone reading this paper will take away some
information that they can use in their training whether they are coaches or athletes and
that everyone will begin to benefit from this form of training.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

I bought a used K-22 some years ago that had suffered some non-critical damage from dry firing. I suspect that the damage occurred only because there were other issues ("timing") involved, but since I'm not a gunsmith I don't really know. I try to act appropriately considering my ignorance. I usually use used cartridge cases, occasionally aluminum dummy rounds, and I'm still looking for a quantity of yellow anchors at a reasonable price.

 

[Dave Haynes]

Mine is under 5,000 pieces, has been dry fired a lot and has had a lot of HV .22 shot through it. It was used for 20 years by a West Coast Army Pistol shooter Maj. Hank Bires before I ever got it. It has no damage from any of this. I think that people are too careful with 41s. Either that or the new ones are not as well made. I look at the manual and the lubrication is stupid it is so dry. One drop at the back of the slide. It is a machine it has sliding and rotating parts. Lube the poor thing like a machine.

 

[Racer X]

Dry firing a S&W M41 (or any rimfire pistol) is not a good idea because of the metal on metal hit. Done enough times malformations will occur and will eventually screw up your pistol.

Ruger specifically designed their Mark pistols with a firing pin stop pin through an oval cutout in the firing pin. Limits travel so the pin won't hit the chamber lip. Same with the 10/22. Ruger encourages you to dry fire to practice trigger control.

Am I understanding correctly that Smith couldn't be bothered to design in a simple limiting feature?

 

[JudgeColt]

Smith & Wesson DID design the Model 41 so that the firing pin cannot touch the chamber under any circumstance. Despite the above discussion and all of the evidence to the contrary, some continue to believe that a rimfire chamber will be "peened" by dry firing. No "modern" rimfire is designed so that there can be damage to the chamber from "dry-firing." Thousands of cycles will not cause "malformations."

I too will also add that my Anschuetz firing pin does not contact the chamber if "dry-fired."

I think some of the first rimfire firearms will "peen" the chamber if "dry-fired," so that is probably where this phobia began. Surely some of the collectors on this site have a Model 1. Will the firing pin on one of those contact the chamber if no cartridge is present?

 

[wproct]

I did accidentally dry-fire my model 41 a couple of times and no damage was done, but I didn't make a practice of it.

Now, I once owned a Smith & Wesson model 2206 that the owner's manual specifically said not to dry-fire it. I did dry-fire it about 5 times and I broke a firing pin. I ordered 3 new firing pins and dry-fired it several times and another broken firing pin. I know, that was stupid of me after breaking the first one. Lesson learned.

 

[forindooruseonly]

My father was a 2600+ bullseye shooter, who shot a 41. Needless to say that saw a lot of dry firing until he moved on to a Hammerli. Later, he gifted it to me for competition and I've also dry fired it thousands of times over the years. The gun is fine, no peening, scarring, broken firing pins, any other related issue.

One is certainly not going to hurt it.

As for those who saw there is no reason to dry fire any type of firearm ever, I disagree, as it is a valuable practice tool when improving or maintaining your trigger control. If you are just shooting 7 yards, then maybe not, but for any type of competition shooting requiring accuracy, dry firing is essential. Do your research, there are some guns that require snapcaps, then there are those that don't.

 

[Larks]

regardless of different peoples different experiences - it is no “wives tale” that there is a risk in dry firing your Model 41. If you are aware of the risk you can decide yourself how you want to manage it.

Personally I use snap caps to dry fire after being warned by a M41 owner when I first bought mine that he had damaged both the breech face and firing pin after being told that dry firing this firearm was OK.

A quick search of the web from other forums throws up these - they are not “proof” that it is not OK but it does serve as a warning that damage to the breech face does happen:

 

[smithra_66]

regardless of different peoples different experiences - it is no “wives tale” that there is a risk in dry firing your Model 41. If you are aware of the risk you can decide yourself how you want to manage it.

Personally I use snap caps to dry fire after being warned by a M41 owner when I first bought mine that he had damaged both the breech face and firing pin after being told that dry firing this firearm was OK.

A quick search of the web from other forums throws up these - they are not “proof” that it is not OK but it does serve as a warning that damage to the breech face does happen:

That gun is definitely out of spec and you should get it serviced, because it will probably fail on you at the wrong time.

There's simply no way that a manufacturer can expect an end user to never dry fire a gun. Just simply not counting your rounds and having the magazine fail to hold it open on the last shot causes a dry fire.

Most 41s don't do that. I'd have S&W fix that one and get you a firing pin in proper spec.

EDITED TO ADD: Even in the forum where you found that picture, the guys all replied that something is definitely wrong with that one. It's not at all normal for a 41 to do that.

Model 41 – Damage or Normal? | The Firearms Forum

 

[JudgeColt]

It appears the Model 41 pictured just above is one of these with "too long" firing pins that I mentioned above.

That said, the damage is so small that I doubt it affects reliable ignition.

I believe "forindooruseonly" probably holds the record for the Model 41 with the most "dry fires" without damage! His/her Model 41 is clearly NOT out of specification!

 

[Larks]

That gun is definitely out of spec and you should get it serviced, because it will probably fail on you at the wrong time.

There's simply no way that a manufacturer can expect an end user to never dry fire a gun. Just simply not counting your rounds and having the magazine fail to hold it open on the last shot causes a dry fire.

Most 41s don't do that. I'd have S&W fix that one and get you a firing pin in proper spec.

EDITED TO ADD: Even in the forum where you found that picture, the guys all replied that something is definitely wrong with that one. It's not at all normal for a 41 to do that.

Model 41 – Damage or Normal? | The Firearms Forum

Regardless of the cause but to reiterate the point of my post: there is a risk in dry firing your Model 41 (or any other rimfire for that matter). I prefer to use snap caps because of my friends experience with damaging both his breech face and firing pin.

Granted his may have been a faulty build as well (about 8 years ago), but given the questionable quality of how we are seeing these things put together these days I feel it prudent (cheaper and more convenient) to mitigate the risk.

(There were two different M41’s pictured above)

 

[SonofaGunsmith]

41's firing pin will bottom in the bolt and not hit the face of the chamber new. Repeated dry firing & heavy use over time will peen the firing pin and bolt assy where the firing pin will begin to travel further forward. The counterbore in the rear of the bolt and the surface area on the firing pin peen on dry fire. If the firing pin hits the chamber, the bolt, firing pin and spring should be replaced. The Wolf spring recalibrating kit has a strengthened load firing pin spring that only needs to overcome the mass of the firing pin in cycle. It may help a bit on peening. Save spent casings to dry fire and to check trigger pull. No reason to dry fire a 41 unless we are talking training for competition which this post was not originally about.

 

[Rowlf]

41's firing pin will bottom in the bolt and not hit the face of the chamber new. Repeated dry firing & heavy use over time will peen the firing pin and bolt assy where the firing pin will begin to travel further forward. The counterbore in the rear of the bolt and the surface area on the firing pin peen on dry fire. The Wolf spring recalibrating kit has a strengthened load firing pin spring to stop or slow the peening. Save spent casings to dry fire but only to check trigger pull. No reason to dry fire a 41.

Are you a competition shooter? Do you work with a coach?

The firearm and firearm parts are consumables to achieve a good score.

 

[chief38]

My 41 doesn't like CCI standard velocity ammo. It expresses its distaste by ejecting the empty shell but not picking up a new one about 3% to 5% of the time. When that happened I would dry fire the gun.

Before I gave up on trying to get my gun to reliably fire that ammo I dry fired the gun dozens of times and cannot see any damage. It works great with CCI Blazer or Minimags so there was no unseen functional damage either.

I never intentionally dry fire my 41 but agree with the other posters that as long as you do not make a habit of it you will not have a problem.

I just saw this. I would suspect that whatever recoil spring you have in the gun is about 1/2 lb. too heavy for the CCI standard velocity ammo - as this ammo is relatively slow, hence the superb inherent accuracy. If I recall correctly, the standard factory spring weight is 7.5 lbs. Exchanging it for a 7 pound spring would probably eliminate the issues, but if you already have a good stock of the high velocity ammo, then just use that with the existing spring. I do find a little accuracy loss with HV ammo though.

IF YOU EVER DO replace the spring and use a Wolff Spring, MAKE SURE the FINISHED END faces the muzzle!!!!! If you put the unfinished end forward, your gun will jam up tighter than scrooges wallet! I have done many postings regarding this because Wolff wrote the instructions on the package incorrectly. Now that was a few years back, I HOPE they have corrected this or finished both end of the spring as the Factory springs are. They cheaped out with only one finished end!

 

[chief38]

May also want to address the reason behind the slide not locking back - ammo, magazines or slide stop?

One reason the slide may fail to lock back is because the ammo is too weak for the recoil spring in the gun. If the slide is not coming all the way rearward, failures to properly feed and the slide not locking back can be the result. A 1/2 lb. weaker spring might solve both issues. HV ammo could also "fix" this issue however a slight accuracy loss might be noticed.

Springs do vary slightly with different runs and lots. Manufactures spec's also vary a slight amount. I doubt S&W makes their springs anymore.

 

[SonofaGunsmith]

Competition shooter

Are you a competition shooter? Do you work with a coach?

The firearm and firearm parts are consumables to achieve a good score.

I am a competition shooter. My dad, NRA instructor, gunsmith, range officer was my coach.



The firearm is not a consumable, its a tool. What is your point?

 

[Dave Lively]

I just saw this. I would suspect that whatever recoil spring you have in the gun is about 1/2 lb. too heavy for the CCI standard velocity ammo - as this ammo is relatively slow, hence the superb inherent accuracy. If I recall correctly, the standard factory spring weight is 7.5 lbs. Exchanging it for a 7 pound spring would probably eliminate the issues, but if you already have a good stock of the high velocity ammo, then just use that with the existing spring. I do find a little accuracy loss with HV ammo though.

IF YOU EVER DO replace the spring and use a Wolff Spring, MAKE SURE the FINISHED END faces the muzzle!!!!! If you put the unfinished end forward, your gun will jam up tighter than scrooges wallet! I have done many postings regarding this because Wolff wrote the instructions on the package incorrectly. Now that was a few years back, I HOPE they have corrected this or finished both end of the spring as the Factory springs are. They cheaped out with only one finished end!

I did buy a set of Wolff springs a few years ago and read your posts about what happens if you install them backwards. Those posts probably saved me from having a big problem, thanks! Before buying the springs I bought a big stockpile of MinMag and Blazer ammo I am still using.

My 41 is a bit more accurate with standard velocity and after I run through my big stockpile of existing ammo I am going to give a weaker spring a try but be very careful about the spring. Putting the spring in the right way isn't hard to remember if you are aware of the consequences.

Anyone with a 41 that does not want to use a different spring should give CCI Blazer a try. It is both cheaper and more accurate than MiniMags in my gun and just as reliable.