Model 41 jamming

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jimc00

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I have a Model 41 made in 1969. I have owned it since about 1971. The recoil spring was replaced about 4 years ago and until recently it has worked flawlessly.

It started to either stovepipe or the slide doesn't go back far enough to extract or cock the hammer only the first two rounds after a reload.

I cleaned it but didn't fully strip the frame. I verified that the extractor is free. I tried a mag that came with the pistol and one that was made about 4 years ago with the plastic follower. I switched the barrel. I tried 2 different Federal standard velocity loads that worked before and Aguila HV. I loaded 10, 8 and 6 rounds and it still only jams on the first 2 shots.

Does anyone have any ideas???
 
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If you have ruled out shooting debris, etc. , I would suspect the recoil spring first....especially since the malfunctions are happening on the first two rounds out of the magazine. Other, more knowledgeable 41 owners will be along shortly to help diagnose the problem.

Just a heads up on the recoil spring....be sure the open end of the recoil spring, if the spring has an open end (cut end), is at the back, and the closed end of the spring is toward the muzzle.
 
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it is not going to be the recoil spring.

As a spring ages, it weakens.

This will cause to OPPOSITE to what you are describing.

You mentioned that you changed out the barrel ?
So I assume that means that you have a spare one ?
If so, we can assume that it has a clean chamber and can thus rule that out.

That leaves the slide and the frame.

The first thing that I would do would be to replace the extractor with a Volquartsen one. Cheap and easy job.
While to bolt is out of the slide, it would be a good idea ( but not related to this issue ) to clean the firing pin and its channel and the spring.

Give the extractor spring, hole, pin and slot a very good clean and de-burr.

assemble in this order;
spring, pin and then extractor claw.

Then use CCI standard velocity rounds. It is a very good idea to wipe any excessive wax off them.
Make sure that they can just drop in and fall out of the barrel chamber using only gravity.

Make sure that the slide travels smoothly and easily in the frame.


Let us know how you get on.
 
After a thorough cleaning I'd suggest replacing the extractor with the $11 Volquartsen. It is forged and is much better than the Factory original part. It is a straight forward job and the only tools you need are a Punch, a Hammer, a "soft" bench block and a workbench. For the $11 bucks it's well worth giving that a shot as I have seen this part cause problems in M41's including my own.
 
I'll get the extractor. But what could cause the hammer to not reset only on the first two rounds. When I go to the range I usually bring the 5 1/2. bull barrel and a 5 1/2 sporter barrel just for fun. Before I go next time, I'll clean both chambers and I'll also bring a 7 3/8" as another test. I think that the long barrel has less than 2 mags through it.
 
There is additional pressure exerted on the bottom of the bolt during cyling when the magazine is full, that's why I mentioned checking the orientation of the recoil spring. If the recoil spring is not installed properly, rearward (full) slide movement can be inhibited.
 
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There is an indicator to show the position of the hammer and I Verified that it is working correctly.
 
Start simple, replace the recoil spring AND the magazine springs.(check orientation as mentioned)

Try a few HV rounds (no you are not gonna hurt it) Does it work with those.

Then move on to the more complex stuff.
 
My last batch of CCI Std Vel was jam o matic stuff in my mod 41, then tried some Remington Std Vel and it runs perfect. Have 4 bricks of CCI to get rid of, won't shoot in revolvers either, fill the chambers with junk. Usually the CCI works well. I would change ammo before I started changing parts.
 
I put in a Volquartsen extractor, cleaned and lightly lubed the extractor spring and pin. Replaced the firing pin spring, replaced the recoil spring. Replaced 2 out of three mag springs, I left one as is as a control.

I cleaned everything, lightly lubed the hammer spring. Cleaned 3 barrels.

I went to the range today and it on the first two or three rounds, the empty brass either stays in the chamber or stove pipes. The cocking indicator is flush with the frame. I have to rack the slide and the brass extracts, ejects and the hammer cocks. The rest of the magazine will function properly.

I have used three different magazines, three different barrels, 3 different standard velocity loads and one high velocity load. Even though I have been shooting this postol since 1970, I tried holding it tightly and limp wristing it and it still fails the same way.

Does anyone have any suggestions? I am going to look at the ejector/slide stop to see if there is anything obvious there but those are only available as a used part from GPC.
 
What ammo have you tried?

I soak my magazines in rubbing alcohol, blow them out with a compressed air, then oil with Break Free and again compressed air, that may help
 
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Make sure it's lubed sufficiently. There are two areas I rarely hear mentioned. I have found leaving them dry causes problems. Use a light coat of grease on the part of the hammer that contacts the slide. Also put a light coat of grease on the rib of the slide where it contacts the underside of the barrel. You'll see the wear marks. Don't use oil, use grease like Superlube.
 
i have the same problem with both of my model 41s,,,,,i have the same complaints everyone else seems to have,everyone tells to clean the gun,use different ammo,and replace the springs,,,,,in my opinion,the gun is just far over rated,,,,,i see so many people having the same issues as i have,,,,,,
 
algeciras said:
i have the same problem with both of my model 41s,,,,,i have the same complaints everyone else seems to have,everyone tells to clean the gun,use different ammo,and replace the springs,,,,,in my opinion,the gun is just far over rated,,,,,i see so many people having the same issues as i have,,,,,,
Click to expand...

Either that or the combination of a 41 and CCI or other types of standard velocity is overrated.

Once I gave up trying to get my 41 to be reliable with CCI SV and started shooting MiniMags it has become the very accurate, trouble free and fun to shoot 22 I wanted it to be. I did buy a recoil buffer the reduce the impact of the slide hitting the frame but so far have seen no sign of damage from the high velocity ammo.

I went through the steps you mentioned and still could not get my 41 to run reliably with SV ammo. I was about to replace it with a Ruger Mark 4 but decided to use high velocity ammo instead. S&W 41s are not some precious work of art that must be handled with kid gloves and preserved at all costs. Worst case is the gun will break and I will have to replace it with something else.

If you are shooting competition the SV ammo is more accurate. But even with high velocity ammo my 41 is more accurate than I am.
 
Some ammo companies have bad batches of ammo, the last CCI standard velocity I purchased were very inconsistent and dirty, set them aside for company that wants to shoot. This latest batch of Remington Standard velocity from Midway has been great.

This summer I shot at least 50 rounds a day through my Mod 41, it just gets better when the ammo is out of a good batch.
 
Holy Cow I cant believe so many 41's are having these kind of problems.
I have 3 with no modifications, I clean them in a tub of kerosene using soft brushes and just soaking. Dry with a hair dryer and Break Free on the slide only. CCI std velocity and they are good for about 1000 rounds or so before I do the same thing all over again.
I use them for Bullseye shooting in 3 leagues and practice.
 
My 1990 M41 just never cared much for CCI SV. The 50 rnd boxes from CCI ran Ok, but the 100 rnd thay Federal produced was iffy. Same deal with my SM ACE. The Ruger MK I didn't care.

A fellow shooter told me to give Wolf MT and clued me in that SK made it and it was not Russian junk. This was some years back when it was relatively unknown. Problems just went away, no misfires, FTF, FTE, nada.

Worked so well I splurged on 2 cases from a deal in the Shotgun News and have been using it ever since in all my .22s.

I kept reccommending it, or the SK Standard+, but didn't realize just how much the price had gone up. I paid under $200/case including shipping and now it's more than double that (I said this was some years ago). Even so, stored in ammo cans in a controlled environment, I've noticed no degredation.

Haven't shot any American made .22 lr in over 2 decades. Don't think I'm missing much of anything there, especially after the shortage when quality hasn't seemed to improve any.

Rob
 
This is what I've been shooting in my 41. No problems with these.
 

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Dear Jim:

We are going to get your model 41 working properly. Dont worry about it going to get it done.

I shoot bullseye, run a bullseye team, and own two 41's that are competition ready and they have thousands of rounds through them. Fixed them many times and have fixed other shooters model 41's. Have been sucessful every time.

First off, you say that you cleaned it. Good! Make sure it is operating room clean everywhere. Step 1 done.

Next, you said that you have replaced the extractor and spring. I assume you have cleaned out the firing pin etc and everything looks good there? Step 2 done.

Moving on, you have replaced the main recoil spring with a new one. When these weaken they will deliver jams and also fail to push the slide fully forward into battery but you got that covered. Awesome!

Now here is some new stuff for you to take a look at. Remove the barrel and drop a live round in the chamber. It should slide right in and drop out when you turn it upside down. If it doesnt, look in the barrel at a bright light and see if there is a carbon ring. Use a Q tip to see if there are any burrs and take care of them. Polish the chamber using valve lapping compound and a brass brush with a patch on it. Get it so that the live round drops in and falls out easy as pie. This is important.

Ok with the barrel removed, take a close look at the ejector/slide stop. S&W calls this the slide stop but most people call it the ejector but it performs both functions. While this is not positively attached to the frame, there should be no movement sideways from the frame. If there is movement side to side, the ejector is unable to get a good bite on the empty casing and you will have jams. Replace if necessary, about 50 or sixty bucks.

You say that this is only happening on the first couple rounds in a magazine. I assume it doesnt matter what magazine it is but check to make sure it is not magazine specific. If it is specific to one magazine or a couple magazines, it could be that a burr has developed on the magazine catch and the magazine could be riding higher then it should, dragging on the slide. Check the magazine catch on the pistol and see if it is deformed. replace if necessary. take a look at the magazine catch slot in the magazine. As a test, pull the mag follower down and file at the top of the slot that catches the magazine catch, allowing the mag to ride lower in the frame and get the pistol to operate correctly.

Personally, from reading through this thread, I suspect that it is the slide stop/ejector that needs replacing but I have given you a systematic approach to get the pistol operating correctly. Feel free to send me a pm if you have any more questions.

Sincerely,
Cranky
 
Slide Stop/ejector availability.

If it is the slide stop/ejector that needs replacement, I have had success finding them on EBAY from a gun store down in Florida. Be patient, he posts them up every couple of weeks.

Regards,
Crankster
 
I finally have feedback.

I did everything that was suggested and still had jamming. I found a website that had an ejector for sale. I bought it and when it arrived, it was used. I installed it and went to the range. I also looked in my ammo stash and found some Remington SV and Winchester Wildcat from about 1974. With 4 different types of modern ammo, the jamming was worse. With the 45 year old ammo the pistol ran like a sewing machine.

I found a forum member from SC with an ejector and bought it. I installed it and now it is reliable as ever. Jamming problem solved!

Now I have one last problem. When I was detail cleaning it, I removed the cocking indicator. Is there a procedure for installing the indicator and spring?
 
HI Jim, its cranky again

To get that cocking indicator back in is difficult but not impossible. The best way is to find a trained miniature octopus and have him put it back together.

Unfortunately, I could not find a trained miniature octopus so I was forced to do it myself. The first time was difficult and it does not get any easier.

I have done it a couple times and there is a trick that helps a bit, not much, but it does help. There are a couple videos on you tube and also some step by step instructions but I have found them lacking a bit, good to review them though.

First off, get a block of wood that fits into the mag well such that you can clamp the wood into a vice and hold the pistol. You will want to adjust the pistol fore and aft such that you get gravity working for you.

Next, install the cocking indicator and with it installed, use a pair of hemostats to clamp down on the extended part outside the back of the frame to hold it in place against the spring in its fully rearward position.

Now, get a dental pick to position the little spring in the bottom the correct way as shown in some of the online instructions.

Grab two beers and the neighbor next door, give him a beer as well.

Remember the part about holding the gun at the correct angle so that gravity works for you? this is where that is important.

As you are holding that small spring in position with the dental pick, have your neighbor insert the hammer in from the top, a very long needle nose pliers or hemostats will come in handy although he will drop it a couple times. As the hammer slides into position, use your other hand to insert the safety which is what holds the hammer in position.

When this fails, take another swig of beer and try again. Eventually, when you are sticking your tongue out the side of your mouth correctly, and the stars are aligned, it will slide together like magic. Don't worry, you will get it back together the day after the important bullseye match.



Regards,
Crankster
 
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jimc00 said:
I found a forum member from SC with an ejector and bought it. I installed it and now it is reliable as ever. Jamming problem solved!
Click to expand...
Was the ejector visibly damaged or bent in some way?

I am scratching my head trying to figure out how an ejector could keep the slide from coming back all the way unless it was bent and rubbing against the slide. Maybe that is why my 41 is not reliable with CCI SV ammo.
 
I have to check the two extractors with micrometers to see if there is a noticeable difference. I did check the stud that goes into the frame with a caliper and it was .003 smaller than the new one.
 
I would put a drop of oil on the top round in the magazine. If that works I would then check chamber for rings or what I had to do to mine was polish the chamber. It was way to tight. Mine was new though, yours is older and has worked in the past. But polishing the chamber worked great for mine and has been running flawless.
 
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