Model 52 wadcutter boolit question

[JayHutch]

Hey Gang,

I posted a thread in the semi auto forum here: http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-...w-model-52-2-ammo-handload-grip-question.html - but realize the handload question likely should be in this forum. Here is a cut and paste of the reload question relating to DEWC or HBWC in the Model 52:
---
Well I've had my Model 52 for about a year now I assumed the initial lust would wear off, like it always does, and that beautiful gun shooting wadcutters only would get its final coat of EEZOX and become a safe queen. NOT.

The Model 52 is hands down the most amazing semi auto pistol ever made by S&W. Some of the newer ones come close. A stainless performance center 952 comes to mind, but . . . what a FUN gun to shoot. If you've never shot one, you have to try it. When you do, you WILL be searching for one. Very tough to find.

Question #1: I'm finally out of the 6 boxes of Winchester Western Match .38 wadcutters that came with the pistol and trying my hand at some hand loads. No problem with dimensions, precision and load data. I know the COAL and tiny bit above flush and slight roll crimp to achieve as close to exact as factory. But my question is DEWC or HBWC? I can buy the DEWC a couple of places locally. The HBWC is a mail order item. Wondering if the Model 52 guru's here have an opinion. Are they the same, or are the HCWC any better? Does the typical 2.7 to 2.9 Bullseye load change with DE vs HB wadcutters? Any pressure diff?

Any advice? - hutch

 

[Moonman]

DEWC will work fine.

2.7-2.8 grains of Bulleye Powder over a 148 grain WC has been a target "Standard Load" for decades.

Many people have tested the HBWC vs DEWC and called it a You Pick EM.

When you become a Master Class shooter you can start to split hairs for any improvement in scores.

Good luck with a Great Firearm.

You aren't interested in selling any of that WINCHESTER WESTERN WC MATCH BRASS are you?

 

[4barrel]

The hbwc to me builds more pressure--To shoot a dewc you have to add .2-.3 more of bullsey-tightgroup-or 700x. I like my hbwcs at .358-But I shoot my dewcs at .357 and a small taper crimp on both. I have four .38 special autos and they all shoot these loads. I use dewcs to pratcice but there seems to be a very small advantage with hbwcs when I bench. The dewc loads in my wheel guns seem to like 3.5 of the same powers above.

 

[JayHutch]

DEWC will work fine.

2.7-2.8 grains of Bulleye Powder over a 148 grain WC has been a target "Standard Load" for decades.

Many people have tested the HBWC vs DEWC and called it a You Pick EM.

When you become a Master Class shooter you can start to split hairs for any improvement in scores.

Good luck with a Great Firearm.

You aren't interested in selling any of that WINCHESTER WESTERN WC MATCH BRASS are you?

TX Moonman,

That's what I suspected. Just wondered about what some were saying on the forum about upping the load .2 or .3 for the DEWC. Doesn't sound like I will be able to really discern a diff, so if the 52 is cycling OK, why add eh?

I did save all that Winchester Western WC brass. 300 pieces in those 6 boxes. I lost a few in the leaves. Noticed they do have a cannalure I've not seen on any new brass. Won't that eventually form fire out? What makes them better than the new Win .38 spl brass?

Funny, the guy I bought this 52-2 from ($850 almost new, in proper box with all goodies + 2 mags) had the 6 boxes and wanted $20 a box. Not knowing any better I thought that seemed a little high so I said "$15 a box and I'll take 'em all" He said OK, since what would he do with them w/o the 52? I feel like taking him $20 - $30 bucks. Hard to find them anymore.

 

[pdcampy]

Over the years I've had two different 52's and both shot well with factory flush seated W/C's. I had the best luck and accuracy with Speer 148 Gn. HBWC seated over 2.5-2.7 grains of Bullseye powder. Mine and others cast 148 gn. W/C's didn't work as well and often jammed. FYI

 

[Moonman]

JayHutch,

The W.C. brass is thinner at the top section for the longer seating depth of the Full Wadcutters,
the Cannalure keeps a SIZED WC from just falling down into the case and being right on top of the powder charge.

That would send the pressure up.

Keep your W.C. brass SEPARATE from your normal brass of that caliber.

Good Shooting.

 

[4barrel]

Over the years I've had two different 52's and both shot well with factory flush seated W/C's. I had the best luck and accuracy with Speer 148 Gn. HBWC seated over 2.5-2.7 grains of Bullseye powder. Mine and others cast 148 gn. W/C's didn't work as well and often jammed. FYI

A hbwc is longer than a dewc --without the .2- .3 more on the dewc you probably will have a few jams. I have been shooting a 38 special auto for over 20 years. If I have a problem I have always fixed without having to send it off. 38s are finicky- especially 1911s and long slides. Whatever the outside of the barrel groves are is the size the outside of the bullet needs to be on a dewc . It cuts leading to about zero. Fitted magazines are a must in any target pistol if you are competing. The powder charge needs to be a little hotter if the slide does not lock back on the last round. If you use a lighter spring the slide may not go all the way forward after a few rounds. A 9mm jacketed .356 147gr. bullet shoots very good in these guns turned around and flush. This is what I do for my hobby and I do not suggest anyone try it.

 

[4barrel]

Hey Gang,

I posted a thread in the semi auto forum here: http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-...w-model-52-2-ammo-handload-grip-question.html - but realize the handload question likely should be in this forum. Here is a cut and paste of the reload question relating to DEWC or HBWC in the Model 52:
---
Well I've had my Model 52 for about a year now I assumed the initial lust would wear off, like it always does, and that beautiful gun shooting wadcutters only would get its final coat of EEZOX and become a safe queen. NOT.

The Model 52 is hands down the most amazing semi auto pistol ever made by S&W. Some of the newer ones come close. A stainless performance center 952 comes to mind, but . . . what a FUN gun to shoot. If you've never shot one, you have to try it. When you do, you WILL be searching for one. Very tough to find.

Question #1: I'm finally out of the 6 boxes of Winchester Western Match .38 wadcutters that came with the pistol and trying my hand at some hand loads. No problem with dimensions, precision and load data. I know the COAL and tiny bit above flush and slight roll crimp to achieve as close to exact as factory. But my question is DEWC or HBWC? I can buy the DEWC a couple of places locally. The HBWC is a mail order item. Wondering if the Model 52 guru's here have an opinion. Are they the same, or are the HCWC any better? Does the typical 2.7 to 2.9 Bullseye load change with DE vs HB wadcutters? Any pressure diff?

Any advice? - hutch

Are those real stag grips? They really made that 52 look good.

 

[jag22]

I've seen a couple of posts recently that went along with my experience. The "standard load" just seems very weak to me and just barely cycles the action. I usually use either 231 or bullseye but bump them up 2 or 3 tenths. Much better. You can talk about recoil springs and pressure signs, etc, but if you are an experienced shooter (which I imagine most 52 owners are) you know what feels right and what doesn't. Anyone that does much reloading has shot off a round and thought "oops that one felt a little light or did I spill a little extra in that one". Just use your head and work up a load that works for you and your gun. Personally I didn't like the HBWC because the were terribly dirty to deal with and the DEWC are easier to find. Mostly now I use a plated DEWC (Berry's I think) and they work fine.

 

[cfplinker]

I cast my own and have loaded both DEWC and button nose WC for my 52. I found that the DEWC sets a little deeper in the case than the button nose. When I worked up my loads the DEWC liked 2.9 grains of 231 where the button nose liked 3.1 grains. A friend also had a 52 and his liked 3.3 grains of 231 with store bought DEWCs. Just shows that they can all like a different load and that there is no substitute for finding out what each one likes.

 

[4barrel]

I've seen a couple of posts recently that went along with my experience. The "standard load" just seems very weak to me and just barely cycles the action. I usually use either 231 or bullseye but bump them up 2 or 3 tenths. Much better. You can talk about recoil springs and pressure signs, etc, but if you are an experienced shooter (which I imagine most 52 owners are) you know what feels right and what doesn't. Anyone that does much reloading has shot off a round and thought "oops that one felt a little light or did I spill a little extra in that one". Just use your head and work up a load that works for you and your gun. Personally I didn't like the HBWC because the were terribly dirty to deal with and the DEWC are easier to find. Mostly now I use a plated DEWC (Berry's I think) and they work fine.

YOU DO NOT WONT TO SHOOT JACKETED HBWCS OUT OF AN AUTOMATIC--TOO MUCH PRESSURE--AND DRAG-- AND HARD ON THE BARREL. HBWCS ARE LONGER THAN A DEWC. Lead goes down the barrel a lot easier and will never wear it out. In a WHEEL GUN they are ok --no leading --but will not group as good as a good lead bullet,. I AM on a roll--. punch back.

 

[4barrel]

I cast my own and have loaded both DEWC and button nose WC for my 52. I found that the DEWC sets a little deeper in the case than the button nose. When I worked up my loads the DEWC liked 2.9 grains of 231 where the button nose liked 3.1 grains. A friend also had a 52 and his liked 3.3 grains of 231 with store bought DEWCs. Just shows that they can all like a different load and that there is no substitute for finding out what each one likes.

Turn that button nose around & it will shoot as good as anything other than a .358 hbwc. Taper crimp it & try it.

 

[johngalt]

I don't have a M52 (would like to find one though...). I do have a Clark .38 special, which is my absolute favorite target pistol. I have the 5" heavy slide version with the Bomar rib.

I use a Hornady 148 gr HBWC + 2.8 gr Bullseye. I find 2.7 gr to be a little light - it functions ok but doesn't always lock the slide back on the last shot. 2.8 gr works perfectly.

I've tried DEWC and didn't like them. My barrel has a tight chamber and the DEWC was a little large and had trouble feeding. They were also too hard.

IMO, these target guns work best with light loads and soft swaged bullets. Swaged bullets cost a little more, but my Clark and your 52 are top of the line target guns and deserve to be fed the best.

 

[DanWales]

Model 52

This will offer nothing about you're talking about but I can't help it.

OH my good lord I'm shakin looking at these photos and comments about the 52.

Many, many moons ago I had the pleasure of shooting a teammates 52. Other than a M 41 that is one of the few pistols not the only one though ..... but one of the few that FIT LIKE A GLOVE.

He was a distinguished master shooter. I swear you could watch the slide ratchet back almost like it was in slow motion.
He was a A.F. O-5 about to retire. I asked him once if he would ever sell the pistol. He just smiled and said ..... it will go with me in my tomb.

I haven't the faintest idea of what loads he shot in it. I know we practiced with standard mil issue Win SWC if I remember right, god that was long ago.

God he could just keep shooting through the same hole at 25 yards. He did use it in some 2700 matches but he went with the .45 mostly at that level, bigger hole better score one or two points meant a whole bunch. The bluing he had on that pistol I honestly think was the best I have ever seen on a pistol.

Sorry I'm not on post just couldn't help it.

Dan

 

[jag22]

4barrel, I'm always ready to learn so what are you basing your statement on? I'm well within a safe range for that load. I realize that pressure is handled differently in revolvers compared to autos so what are you saying is too much for the 52 and where did you find that info? It seems in many posts I've read about 52s they act like it is a delicate pistol that can't handle anything but the lightest loads. The barrel is a little thinner than a 952 but the frames seem identical. I know this because I've taken the 52 to the range along with a couple hundred rounds of 9mm. I just don't see where it got that reputation.

 

[JayHutch]

JayHutch,

The W.C. brass is thinner at the top section for the longer seating depth of the Full Wadcutters,
the Cannalure keeps a SIZED WC from just falling down into the case and being right on top of the powder charge.

That would send the pressure up.

Keep your W.C. brass SEPARATE from your normal brass of that caliber.

Good Shooting.

TX moonman - I'll do that. I crushed few cases before I figured out my die settings. Have never been a big Lee fan, but Man-o-shevits, is a Lee Factory Crimp Die a must have for what, like $25 bucks? Just another example of the value of this forum. You guys are amazing! - hutch

 

[JayHutch]

Are those real stag grips? They really made that 52 look good.

YEP - real Stag. As you can see, very barky and great relief. They are beautiful, but very thick. Not sure I can do anything to make them thinner w/o ruining 'em. - hutch

 

[JayHutch]

This will offer nothing about you're talking about but I can't help it.

OH my good lord I'm shakin looking at these photos and comments about the 52.

Many, many moons ago I had the pleasure of shooting a teammates 52. Other than a M 41 that is one of the few pistols not the only one though ..... but one of the few that FIT LIKE A GLOVE.

He was a distinguished master shooter. I swear you could watch the slide ratchet back almost like it was in slow motion.
He was a A.F. O-5 about to retire. I asked him once if he would ever sell the pistol. He just smiled and said ..... it will go with me in my tomb.

I haven't the faintest idea of what loads he shot in it. I know we practiced with standard mil issue Win SWC if I remember right, god that was long ago.

God he could just keep shooting through the same hole at 25 yards. He did use it in some 2700 matches but he went with the .45 mostly at that level, bigger hole better score one or two points meant a whole bunch. The bluing he had on that pistol I honestly think was the best I have ever seen on a pistol.

Sorry I'm not on post just couldn't help it.

Dan

Dan,

Similar experience here. Close friends Dad who has gone on our fly-in fishing trips with us for 30 years always had a Model 52. Sometimes 2. Always wondered what he saw in that beautiful, but strange pistol shooting flush wadcutters. Then I shot it. OMG. Actually made me look look good, and that's not easy. ; - )

As long as I am alive, I WILL have one (or 2) around to amaze myself & others. - hutch

 

[4barrel]

4barrel, I'm always ready to learn so what are you basing your statement on? I'm well within a safe range for that load. I realize that pressure is handled differently in revolvers compared to autos so what are you saying is too much for the 52 and where did you find that info? It seems in many posts I've read about 52s they act like it is a delicate pistol that can't handle anything but the lightest loads. The barrel is a little thinner than a 952 but the frames seem identical. I know this because I've taken the 52 to the range along with a couple hundred rounds of 9mm. I just don't see where it got that reputation.

Hello--This is not really about a 52 but it could be.
-My first 38 auto was a Clark long slide built by Jim sr. I have owned for 25 years or so. The next was another just like it --parts will interchange --but after about 20 rounds it had feeding problems. Clean the lead from the chamber & it went back to work. Then I bought a 52 which I have no problems with. It looks so good I hate to shoot it. One rainy day I decided to try some plated bullets < no name calling > in long slide #2-They measured .357--leading was gone yaaaaee.--But I had to up the powder charge to 3.4 of bullseye to make the slide lock back. Every thing was ok until it blew the back out of the case & stuck a jacketed bullet in the barrel. The spent cases had pressure marks close to the rim. I got a long drill & then a hickory ramrod & out it came --didnt hurt anything. I then got a wadcuter & sluged the barrel--it was .356 with .004 rifleing. All these years.-- sxxt. Well I hadnt shot it much. It will now shoot 2.8 of Bullseye with a 148gr. hbwc sized to .356 & no lead problem. And no pressure sigms. That is why no more plated bullets for me in any 38 automatic I own.-- Like Paul Harvey said------Good day--

 

[Moonman]

JayHutch,

Not sure about the 52 Auto but in a revolver I've heard of a load that follows.

Your Winchester Western W.C. Brass (the old stuff), 2.7- 2.8 grains of Bullseye.

Cast Bullets from an old H&G #50 mold (148 grain Buttonosed W.C.).
Ballist-Cast now has the rights to and produces the old H&G molds
as they are no longer in business. Ballisti-Cast's number for it is #650.

***I just checked the the Ballisti-Cast web site, the #650 WILL NOT WORK in the model 52,
they reccomend their # 851 for it, or their #844 and #934 as options.***

All the bullets #851, 844, and 934 are DEWC.

Ballisti-Cast recommends the #650 buttonosed 148 grain WC for 38 Special Gold Cups/Clark Conversions.

After having fired an original FACTORY catridge in the firearm (the brass fits the chamber now),
DO NOT FULLY RESIZE IT as a first step.

The Ballisti-Cast (H&G) mold may drop at up to .360 in size, DO NOT PUT IT INTO A LUBE/SIZER.
Let it remain that size for now.

The #50 (#650) as are the # 851, 844, and 934 are a WC with a LUBE GROOVE but you TUMBLE these
wth Lee Alox (either straight or diluted 50/50 with Mineral Spirtits.) Much quicker and easier,
then stand them up on waxed paper on a cookie sheet to dry overnight or 24 hours.

Prime the case, powder charge it, insert the bullet and USE A LEE TAPER CRIMP DIE ON IT,
to just remove the belling of the case basically.

Some folks do not like the Lee Taper Crimp Die because it will resize the bullet too with its squeeze.
That's why we left the bullet size at .360 or so, we want it to squeeze a little.
Your WC brass being thinner in the top section helps with the
brass not being overworked too much and thus shorting its service life.

I hope this gives you some things to think about.