Cooter Brown
Member
I bet! There's probably a lot of "Yes Ma'ams!" around the place!
Your lady sounds like a great gal--a real pistol for lack of a better word! You're a lucky man and justifiably proud of her.
Model 60 38 special +P or not ?
- Thread starter caryg
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I bet! There's probably a lot of "Yes Ma'ams!" around the place!
Your lady sounds like a great gal--a real pistol for lack of a better word! You're a lucky man and justifiably proud of her.
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Well if +P's hurt M60's then I must have all super strength ones! NONE of the M60's or M36's I have ever had or friends have has ever been damaged by a limited amount of +P's - and that includes the HEAVY Buffalo Bore LSWCHP-GC 158 grain version doing 1025 - 1040 fps out of the 2" barrel!!
I certainly would never recommend a steady diet of them, but shooting a few +P's for familiarization and practice during Range sessions has done no harm.
The Speer GD 135 grain Short Barrel +P while it is an extremely effective stopper, is a lot less strain on the small framed gun than the BB HEAVY, so I can see no reason not to shoot them as long as they are NOT a steady diet!
I GENERAL TERMS:
The more you shoot ANY gun the faster it will wear - just common sense. The more powerful the load the faster the wear - but common sense has to be used in all scenarios and there has to be a performance vs wear thought process. Keep your +P use to occasional, practice mostly with standard velocity 158 grain and carry +P for SD and you will be fine.
I certainly would never recommend a steady diet of them, but shooting a few +P's for familiarization and practice during Range sessions has done no harm.
The Speer GD 135 grain Short Barrel +P while it is an extremely effective stopper, is a lot less strain on the small framed gun than the BB HEAVY, so I can see no reason not to shoot them as long as they are NOT a steady diet!
I GENERAL TERMS:
The more you shoot ANY gun the faster it will wear - just common sense. The more powerful the load the faster the wear - but common sense has to be used in all scenarios and there has to be a performance vs wear thought process. Keep your +P use to occasional, practice mostly with standard velocity 158 grain and carry +P for SD and you will be fine.
If you want an "official answer", email you question to S&W with the model number and serial number.
I did, and S&W told me to never shoot +P out of my old 640, so I don't. I wouldn't want to be accused of revolver abuse.
Targets Guy
US Veteran
I have 180 rounds of .38, +P and .357's through my Model 60. No problems.
SilentKnight
Member
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I carried a model 60 and put many rounds thru it and still carry it on occasion. I practice with 38 and carry 38+P mainly because it was cheaper to practice with just 38. The last 5 rounds during practice were +P so I had the feel of the carry ammo. If I could afford to practice with +P I would and I do not believe it would harm the firearm. Good luck.
scruffy
Member
All shot at 30' with .38 +P ammo that was decades old, (as old as my M60-3). I don't shoot it often, but occasionally putting +P though it will not hurt a properly maintained older model 60 in good working order.
roaddog28
Member
Amen Buff:
38+P specials have been downgraded to standard pressure 38 special ammo since the 1970s. I remember in the 70s when most standard ammo was running about 800 to 850fps and SAAMI pressure was at 18000psi. Standard pressure now is at 17000psi. The ammo manufacturers use +P ammo as a marketing tool to sell ammo. The answer to the OP's is yes on using +P in a model 60. Heck, I have used the so called +P in my M&P 38 specials from the earlier 1950s. Because of the expense of +P ammo I use standard pressure ammo and I reload. This is to save cost. Here is the link to Saxon Pigs acticle on shooting with kobie.
Shooting with Hobie
This is your answer!! Almost every +P load from 1980 on is what a standard load was in the 70's. S&W use to tell everyone that if it had a model #(10,15,60) it was safe to shoot +p's.it could cause more or faster wear in some of the lighter air weight guns but it was safe to shoot them.Go look up some of the 1950's Air Force loads for the 130 fmj load. So of those would hit 1250 fps out of a 6" barrel. It's just another way of S&W hiding behind lawyer's. I can believe how often this comes up. Remember on the K frames they also made them .357 magnums, they did wear faster but there are still thousands of them out there with nothing wrong.
Targets Guy
US Veteran
I'm glad this has been cleared up.
Great response! lmao 
Chuck Hawks is a moron IMHO.Shoot 'em![not him,the ammo!]
Edmo
US Veteran
OK, I'll be the party pooper...
Below is my no-dash Model 60 which I've owned since the mid 1980s. It is marked ".38 S.&W. SPL." and has the shorter non-magnum cylinder.
Several years ago I sent this revolver back to the mothership to have a broken hammer pivot pin replaced (note the new pin pressed through the frame just below the cylinder release). While talking to the S&W customer service guy, I asked about +P in this gun. He replied it is not recommended due to the "heat treatment" of the metals.
Now we all know my gun will likely handle all of the +P I could run though it. This may loosen the fairly tight action earlier than with standard pressure rounds, but I doubt I will ever fire it enough to achieve that.
I have other J-frames which are my first choice for carry. My Model 60 is generally only used for "around the house carry" and as a range toy. Because of this I will stick to standard pressure rounds.
Another thought, they don't make the no-dash Model 60 anymore. Based on that I'll treat this little revolver more gently. My current production guns get the +P loads since they are are "rated" for +P and are easily replaced if needed.
As they say, YMMV...
Edmo
Below is my no-dash Model 60 which I've owned since the mid 1980s. It is marked ".38 S.&W. SPL." and has the shorter non-magnum cylinder.
Several years ago I sent this revolver back to the mothership to have a broken hammer pivot pin replaced (note the new pin pressed through the frame just below the cylinder release). While talking to the S&W customer service guy, I asked about +P in this gun. He replied it is not recommended due to the "heat treatment" of the metals.
Now we all know my gun will likely handle all of the +P I could run though it. This may loosen the fairly tight action earlier than with standard pressure rounds, but I doubt I will ever fire it enough to achieve that.
I have other J-frames which are my first choice for carry. My Model 60 is generally only used for "around the house carry" and as a range toy. Because of this I will stick to standard pressure rounds.
Another thought, they don't make the no-dash Model 60 anymore. Based on that I'll treat this little revolver more gently. My current production guns get the +P loads since they are are "rated" for +P and are easily replaced if needed.
As they say, YMMV...
Edmo
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Your hand will love it
I've been responding to these Chicken Little inquiries for so long, I almost know the numbers by heart! Chicken Little, by the way, is the fairy tale character who was afraid the "The sky is falling"------"THE SKY IS FALLING!!"
So, the numbers: They start out with 1925 numbers from the S&W catalog from that year----when .38 Specials were special. Think of those days as "The Good Old Days"----way before they (whoever "they" was) decided .38 Special loads needed to be reduced. Some folks here will know when that was. I've forgotten----if I ever knew in the first place. The other numbers are from the tables in the Gun Digest.
Okay, here we go----with a few words so as to enhance understanding---in the unlikely event it's necessary:
+P translates to increased pressure. Pressure is what drives bullets through barrels. That fact leads me to believe there's a direct correlation between pressure and muzzle velocity. That comes in handy, because I can look those numbers up. I can probably look pressure numbers up too---if I knew where to look---or cared enough to find out.
Okay---muzzle velocities: By the by, all these are for the regular, everyday 158 grain bullet loads. Are there faster +P loads? You bet! How'd they do that? Easy---with lighter weight bullets.
1925-------858 fps
Today------755 fps
+P Today--890 fps
Pretty scary, huh?!!
I'm thinking the + also stands for the increased PRICE of these wonder loads---also for the increased PROFIT margin for the folks who make them. I figure all this came to pass in the conference room one day when the Boss Man was asking for ideas on increasing profits. One bright young man---probably with an MBA from Harvard, or some such, raised his hand, and cried out "I KNOW----I KNOW!!"
He proceeded to suggest they increase the loads back up to about what they were before they reduced them, give the "new" loads a snappy name, and increase the prices they were charging.
And damned if it didn't work!! And I'll bet the bright young man got a raise---and a company car-----and extra vacation time---and he flew first class if he had to do any traveling. And last but not least, he got to eat lunch in the Executive Dining Room!! So much for that increased profit margin!!
Ralph Tremaine
Oh!!-----One other little minor detail: The entity known as the Plaintiff's Bar (the entirety of the personal injury lawyers) makes their living suing the pants off of those who cause injury to folks----or cause damage to their property---as well they should. The ammo folks know all about the Plaintiff's Bar, and have Risk Managers on staff to see to it their employers never hear a word from them----or get any scary paperwork from them----just as a matter of job security.
The bottom line of all this goes like so: +P loads are PERFECTLY SAFE in ANY .38 Special handgun EVER MADE!!-------or else!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And "or else" ain't NEVER going to happen----not while there's single risk manager alive---and there are a whole bunch of risk managers!
Damn!! I forgot to treat with all the "new and improved" +P rated guns---says so right on the barrels! Can you think of a better way to get your money to be their money? Works like a charm!!
And damned if I didn't think to say something about +P+ loads! That's because I'm not so sure I even know what they are----also don't even know if they have them for .38 Specials----and don't even care. The one thing I do know is why they're there. See the prior comments about higher prices and higher profit margins---and don't forget about that Plaintiff's Bar business. Those folks might be thought of as watch dogs. The first thing they're watching for is the opportunity to file a lawsuit against the ammo companies. That in turn creates the opportunity to run TV ads that end up telling you to call 1-800-BAD-AMMO---so they can sign you up as a Plaintiff---so they can earn a living---with their third (or so) of what you get----plus expenses!
That brings us right back to money again---and that's what this is all about---always has been----always will be.
It's the way of the world!
So, the numbers: They start out with 1925 numbers from the S&W catalog from that year----when .38 Specials were special. Think of those days as "The Good Old Days"----way before they (whoever "they" was) decided .38 Special loads needed to be reduced. Some folks here will know when that was. I've forgotten----if I ever knew in the first place. The other numbers are from the tables in the Gun Digest.
Okay, here we go----with a few words so as to enhance understanding---in the unlikely event it's necessary:
+P translates to increased pressure. Pressure is what drives bullets through barrels. That fact leads me to believe there's a direct correlation between pressure and muzzle velocity. That comes in handy, because I can look those numbers up. I can probably look pressure numbers up too---if I knew where to look---or cared enough to find out.
Okay---muzzle velocities: By the by, all these are for the regular, everyday 158 grain bullet loads. Are there faster +P loads? You bet! How'd they do that? Easy---with lighter weight bullets.
1925-------858 fps
Today------755 fps
+P Today--890 fps
Pretty scary, huh?!!
I'm thinking the + also stands for the increased PRICE of these wonder loads---also for the increased PROFIT margin for the folks who make them. I figure all this came to pass in the conference room one day when the Boss Man was asking for ideas on increasing profits. One bright young man---probably with an MBA from Harvard, or some such, raised his hand, and cried out "I KNOW----I KNOW!!"
He proceeded to suggest they increase the loads back up to about what they were before they reduced them, give the "new" loads a snappy name, and increase the prices they were charging.
And damned if it didn't work!! And I'll bet the bright young man got a raise---and a company car-----and extra vacation time---and he flew first class if he had to do any traveling. And last but not least, he got to eat lunch in the Executive Dining Room!! So much for that increased profit margin!!
Ralph Tremaine
Oh!!-----One other little minor detail: The entity known as the Plaintiff's Bar (the entirety of the personal injury lawyers) makes their living suing the pants off of those who cause injury to folks----or cause damage to their property---as well they should. The ammo folks know all about the Plaintiff's Bar, and have Risk Managers on staff to see to it their employers never hear a word from them----or get any scary paperwork from them----just as a matter of job security.
The bottom line of all this goes like so: +P loads are PERFECTLY SAFE in ANY .38 Special handgun EVER MADE!!-------or else!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And "or else" ain't NEVER going to happen----not while there's single risk manager alive---and there are a whole bunch of risk managers!
Damn!! I forgot to treat with all the "new and improved" +P rated guns---says so right on the barrels! Can you think of a better way to get your money to be their money? Works like a charm!!
And damned if I didn't think to say something about +P+ loads! That's because I'm not so sure I even know what they are----also don't even know if they have them for .38 Specials----and don't even care. The one thing I do know is why they're there. See the prior comments about higher prices and higher profit margins---and don't forget about that Plaintiff's Bar business. Those folks might be thought of as watch dogs. The first thing they're watching for is the opportunity to file a lawsuit against the ammo companies. That in turn creates the opportunity to run TV ads that end up telling you to call 1-800-BAD-AMMO---so they can sign you up as a Plaintiff---so they can earn a living---with their third (or so) of what you get----plus expenses!
That brings us right back to money again---and that's what this is all about---always has been----always will be.
It's the way of the world!
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Ralph, rather than pressure I believe that it is gas volume that drives bullet speeds. A pressure peak of for example 2 nano seconds might produce less gas than one with a pressure peak of 5 nano seconds that has a lower pressure. That is why 5.6 gr Ramshot Sillhoutte produces 1050 fps from a 4" bbl 38 special and a 158 gr sec. The pressure is listed as 16, 800 psi.
max503
Member
From someone who shot a Model 638 loose with wadcutters, I'd say be very judicious with them.
You can't fool Mother Nature. Heavy ammo is going to accelerate wear on any gun.
You can't fool Mother Nature. Heavy ammo is going to accelerate wear on any gun.
It's a good day when I learn something new!
It's an even better day when I understand what I learned. I count my blessings for the expert and devoted staff I had back in the day who made a point of making me look good---never mind what the facts of the matter happened to be.
Fast forward to today when my staff of kitty cats' primary concern is getting their breakfast on time. That's why they just looked at me today when I told them I sort of understood what this gentleman was saying----sort of----and then they said they'd work on it-----AFTER breakfast---and report back. They also said they might need a budget deviation authorization to retain a consultant---and that I should remind folks that the boss is not always right----but he's never in doubt!!
I told them that would not be a problem---unless the Boss Lady found out about it.
Ralph Tremaine
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