Model of 91 in 38 S&W Revolver Barrel 8 3/4" Long

[Boulder350]

Recently there was a Model of 91 barrel in 38 S&W for sale on GB. I was the under bidder on the item.

It looked like it was a single shot barrel that was almost completely converted to a revolver barrel. The barrel measured 8 3/4". Did anyone here buy it? Has anyone seen a conversion like this before?

 

[red9]

Even a donor 10" .38 barrel is scarce; I don't recall having ever seen one.
Did the auction mention a serial number on the barrel or cylinder?

Bob

 

[Boulder350]

The auction mentioned a serial number in the 21,xxx range. That serial number is stamped on the cylinder. I can't see if there are serial numbers on the latch or the barrel and there was nothing mentioned in the listing.

 

[BMur]

Late long barrel

Looks like 8 1/2" with a post 1902 caliber stamp. That's a very odd one for sure. Has to be a special order item. Too bad you couldn't get the barrel serial number?
That does not look like it was converted from a single shot barrel. I'm not sure you could even convert one. The milling process would be near impossible without destroying the top-strap.


Murph

 

[Boulder350]

Here is the best picture from the auction of the barrel and latch. It doesn't look like there are any numbers on the right side. Left side is unclear.

 

[BMur]

Model of 91?

Mark is the barrel stamped on top MODEL OF 91? If it is then it's 100% legit. Especially if it's centered. Rare item!

Murph

 

[glowe]

Since the 38 Double Action revolver could accept the barrel assembly, a picture or description of the top rib stampings would be nice.

 

[Boulder350]

It's marked Model of 91. I don't know if its a modification from Bubbas gun shop, or if someone at the factory messed with it in their spare time, or if the factory made the modifications for a customer to fill a special order.

 

[Boulder350]

The listing is still available for review in the advanced section of GB. I typed in Model of 91 8 3/4 barrel to find it again under the auction completed section.

 

[glowe]

It's marked Model of 91. I don't know if its a modification from Bubbas gun shop, or if someone at the factory messed with it in their spare time, or if the factory made the modifications for a customer to fill a special order.

Thanks, I assume there is no picture of the rifling inside the barrel? Factory multi-piece barrels should have been assembled before rifling, so inside of barrel would not show the joining.

The pictures of the OP's barrel looks as if the rib was cut back from the muzzle, as compared to my 1891?

 

[Boulder350]

I think this barrel started life as a single shot barrel. The cylinder of a 38 S&W is 1.21" long. 10' - 1.21" = 8 3/4.

 

[BMur]

Legit

I agree that it was shortened but I honestly don't see how it was converted. It also can't be a two piece barrel since it's "factory stamped" with the caliber on the left side. That makes it Post 1902 manufactured.
Also I don't believe they made 38 cal single shots this late. They were all 22/32.
I think it's a legit special order MODEL OF 91 revolver 10" barrel manufactured some time after 1902 that was later shortened for some reason. The factory caliber stamp is 100% legit. That's a factory revolver barrel! It's very possible that it's 100% legit special order.

Murph

 

[BMur]

Legit

I just looked at the auction. Wow, that sold for a respectable amount $1000+.

The photos show clearly a factory muzzle crown and I believe the barrel numbers match the cylinder numbers.

I'm seeing 21832 on the cylinder.

I can make out a 3 and an 8 on the barrel. Not too clear but there are numbers on the barrel. Those that I can read do match.

I'm maintaining my opinion that it's a special order and 100% legit. Rare bird for sure.


Murph

 

[Boulder350]

Well Murph, you are making me feel bad. Maybe I should have bid more.

I enjoy studying this model. There are so many variations. I have two loose single shot barrels in 38 S&W. One is an 8" one and the other is a 6" one. Don't know why they ever made a 6" one. Guess it can be more accurate than a revolver barrel. One is marked with the caliber an the other is not. I have a few more loose 32" barrels too. Some are marked with the caliber and some are not. Two of the 32 cal barrels have been machined flat with a recess (fancy flat) for some reason.

I have a loose barrel in 32 M&H or 32 H&R, which is a cartridge discontinued in the early 1900's after the 32 S&W Long was introduced.

 

[rct269]

Speaking of loose barrels, I had a 6" 38 S&W----as new---ostensibly from the S&W Parts Department (no serial number). It had been modified------bottom of the barrel lug was ground "fancy flat" (a la a 3rd Model), touched up with cold blue, and it was fit with 3rd Model sights (screw adjustable for windage/Patridge front). The story was all remaining single shot barrels had been so modified by the factory at a point in time so as to fit/function with any of the three top-break models.

I asked Jinks about it. His response: "Never happened!"

Then I asked Terry Wagner (Mr. Single Shot) about it. His response: "Oh yeah, I've got some of those."

Does anyone else out there have/or seen some such?

Ralph Tremaine

 

[BMur]

Low ball?

Well Murph, you are making me feel bad. Maybe I should have bid more.

I enjoy studying this model. There are so many variations. I have two loose single shot barrels in 38 S&W. One is an 8" one and the other is a 6" one. Don't know why they ever made a 6" one. Guess it can be more accurate than a revolver barrel. One is marked with the caliber an the other is not. I have a few more loose 32" barrels too. Some are marked with the caliber and some are not. Two of the 32 cal barrels have been machined flat with a recess (fancy flat) for some reason.

I have a loose barrel in 32 M&H or 32 H&R, which is a cartridge discontinued in the early 1900's after the 32 S&W Long was introduced.

Sorry Mark,
I know the feeling.
I collect loose Long barrels too. Let's face it, they are at least scarce. I'd have to rate this late one RARE! Sure would like to see a letter on this one. I would have bid it up had I seen it but not much more than it sold for.
You have two single shot barrels in 38 cal??? Are they early numbers? I have a model 1 in 38 S&W with 10" barrel(rare). Haven't shot it yet but plan too. I have black powder rounds loaded up and ready to go.

Murph

 

[Boulder350]

Here are pictures of the barrels. The 8" nickel one is complete with no serial number on it. The 6" blue one is missing a bunch of parts, has no serial number on it, and is machined fancy flat on the bottom. The machining is not buffed and is still in the white even though the rest of the barrel is blued.

 

[rct269]

Thank you, folks!

God love him, I've never heard Roy say, "I don't know.". My all time favorite non-response response of his is "They (S&W) would do anything anybody would pay them to do." which many, without thinking, see as an affirmative reply--------which "ain't necessarily so"---as the song goes.

Oh well---------------------------

Ralph Tremaine

 

[rct269]

My best tale of "loose barrels" goes like this: I once made damn sure I was the high bidder on a lot of 15-18 of them----to get the three I wanted. One of the surplus items a 10" unfinished Olympic barrel---in the white, no markings, no sights, no nothing. I ended up giving all the excess barrels to a friend who had a "put together"/"frankengun" 2nd model. He, in turn, got a hold of Dave Chicoine, and made a deal to have Dave fit (and finish) the Olympic barrel, and a .32 barrel to his 2nd model frame---in exchange for the remaining barrels. All parties concerned were happy campers---especially Dave!

Ralph Temaine

 

[Boulder350]

I have six 32 S&W single shot loose barrels. The two 10" were machined fancy flat, the 2 nickel ones were not. One was started machining flat but was not completed.

I track features on the single shot 3rd models (perfected) and have 156 guns in my research. Only one is nickel. Not sure if it was factory special order, if someone finished it in nickel after it left the factory, or if it was sent back to the factory for nickel finish change. I don't ever remember any loose barrels in nickel being finished fancy flat, just blue ones.

 

[rct269]

Well here's another Perfected for your research (although you might very well already have it---I've run my mouth about it before).

I ended up with 14 single shots in my collection of target guns---one each of all models, all barrel lengths, all variations. The Perfected bunch accounted for 5 of them-----6/8/10" standard guns, and one each early and late Olympic models.

Coming up with the 8" was akin to coming up with hens' teeth-----for YEARS!!! There are 3, maybe 4, 8" 3rds on the Club Gun list, and I was convinced that was all there ever were. Then one day, out of a clear blue sky, the phone rings; and a voice from heaven said something like, "I have an 8" 3rd Model, and I'd like to sell it." THERE IS A GOD!!! The voice not only had an 8", it was a FINE specimen of an 8".

It's #4826. It was part of a production run completed on June 21, 1911, and shipped on June 24, 1911. It was a special order for a single unit. When David Carroll disposed of my collection, it went to a gentleman from Arkansas, along with a 6", #4807 (which I'd had for over 20 years!!!!). It was part of a production run of 31 units completed on May 9, 1911, and shipped just a little while after------November 11, 1915 (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!). Go figure!!

I'd asked Jinks what seemed to be deemed a stupid question-----were these two guns, very closely related by virtue of serial numbers, possibly made at the same time? (Well, you don't know anything until you ask.) The good doctor put me in my place accordingly: "This certainly establishes that they were not produced in the same production lot of Perfected Single Shot Pistols."

That it does---that it does.

It was fun while it lasted!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[BMur]

Old stock?

Ralph,
What's astonishing to me personally is how long these obsolete barrels remained in storage? At the factory?
I have a loose 10" two piece revolver barrel that is unmarked except for what I believe to be a lot number found on most two piece barrels.
I believe they stopped making the two piece barrels in or around 1890 timeframe and yet somehow almost 100 years later one shows up unfinished for auction? Where was this barrel stored for the last 100 years and remain in basically mint condition?

The vacuum vault? Old obsolete parts in my mind would be discovered accidentally by some inventory….Hey, what's that way back there on that shelf? Yet, it's mint? Not a rusted/pitted neglected, mess?

Murph

 

[rct269]

I obviously have no clue as to how long, or why these barrels remained in storage---or why. The only story I've ever heard---and don't remember near enough of, is at some point the factory disposed of them---gave/sold to someone---somewhere.

The three I bought the 15-18 lot of them to get were unremarkable, aside from the fact they were as new. All were 6", a .22, a .32, and a .38. All were complete, ready to go on a frame and go bang. I put them on the shelf along side my Model of '91 Target revolver-----an instant combination set! The .22 and .32 were both numbered to frames, so they started life on pistols. The .38 was the one I spoke of earlier----ground fancy flat on the bottom, with 3rd Model sights---not numbered.

My memory's struggling to make a return as I type this---and doing poorly. It seems like the barrels were sold as scrap by the factory---and deemed to be otherwise by whoever bought them. It was that entity who got them into the collectible firearms world. It's been a good while since I've been to a gun show, but it was fairly common to see these barrels at shows here and there. Needless to say they were largely ignored by the masses---save for the S&W aficionados.

A somewhat related situation/story came about in the later 1950's. The factory folks came across a crate of pre-war barreled .32 Regulation Police frames in a dark, dusty corner of a warehouse---200 items. It was these which found their way to market by way of Herbie Harris (Chicago Distributor), who told S&W to complete them, finish them in Bright Blue, and he'd take all of them. 196 of them made it out the door to Herbie, and he sold every last one of them.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[Boulder350]

Very interesting Ralph. I did not have those in my notes, thanks. They are very early perfected models. That 6" you had is the only one I have recorded so far of the 3rd model

 

[rct269]

Very interesting Ralph. I did not have those in my notes, thanks. They are very early perfected models. That 6" you had is the only one I have recorded so far of the 3rd model

I don't know what all you put in your notes, nor do I know the significance of this as respects a time of a change, but I'm almost certain 4807 carried the "Thin Round Top Blade" as its front sight. (Its letter is silent on that.) 4826, on the other hand, carried AND lettered with the Patridge front sight found on virtually all the 3rd Models.

Another tid-bit (and strictly from memory) is 4807 had a one line barrel address, while 4826 carried the later address. That might very well be explained by a barrel length restriction---too bad I didn't have enough sense to think of that while it lived here.

The six inch was my very first item acquired from an auction (Bonham---San Francisco (??))---1999, and is THE MOST DROP DEAD GORGEOUS single shot I've ever seen---most especially the grips---from an exquisite piece of wood. The auction catalog said it'd been in the factory collection/display-----Jinks says there's no record of that. If it actually was, that might help explain why it hung around in Springfield for 4 1/2 years before being shipped.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[rct269]

My 6" is the only one in your notes-----how 'bout the 8", do you have another/some of those?

Some Wag once told me there were only 10 6" 3rds. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry at that one-----I knew I'd seen more than that with my own eyes! My 8", on the other hand, is the only one I'd ever seen---and the only others I knew of were those 3 or 4 Club Guns.

A well known, and not highly regarded hustler had a rather poor fake 8" he was trying to pass off at an SWCA annual meeting back when---Dallas maybe. That was another one I didn't know whether to laugh or cry about!

In retrospect, that was a GOOD meeting! I bought two 1902 M&P Targets from the same folks for something like $6-800---for the pair!! Those two guns brought over $4,000 when David liquidated my collection recently. Somebodies know more now than I knew then----or now!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[Boulder350]

Ralph - Right now I have 8 perfected single shots that currently wear an 8" barrel in my notes. Your 8" is the only one that has a letter for it verifying it shipped from the factory with an 8". I can't always verify if the patents are centered or if the serial numbers match on the shorter barreled guns. I do note if the barrel has been cut when I can verify it.

 

[rct269]

You can always verify a cut barrel on a top break .22 single shot. Here's how---and why:

No sooner than I said that, a little voice said, "Well yes and maybe not, Kemosabe!" That brought me to a screeching halt! (I always hate it when little voices pop up and tell me I might not be so damn smart as I think I am!)

Okay, starting over: You can ALWAYS verify a cut barrel on a FIRST model single shot------------and I ASSUME but don't actually know the same applies to 2nds and 3rds or not.

The How: The bore will be off center with the barrel at the muzzle if it's been cut (at least on a 1st Model).

The Why: The 1st Model was made in .22 Long Rifle---AND in .32 and .38----one rim fire cartridge, and two center fire cartridges----using ONE center fire action. (!!) The rather sneaky way they made that work was to bore the .22 barrels on a bias---such that the center fire firing pin struck the rim fire cartridge on the rim----right where it needed to do so.

So----did they also bore the 2nd's and 3rd's barrels on a bias (because they also use center fire actions), or did they diddle with the location/configuration of the firing pin?

Good question!

The answer is they did whatever was easier/quicker---------and I don't know what that was---much as it pains me to admit that I'd been making assumptions right along for a loooooooooong time---without applying much thought to the matter.

The good news is it didn't cost me anything!

Ralph Tremaine