Model of 91 single shot Nickel “UPdated”

Joined
Apr 3, 2015
Messages
923
Reaction score
1,699
Location
Haslet Tx
Need a little help.
Local gun store has a single shot S&W pistol in Nickle.
I don’t have pictures but here is what I have:
SN 207XX, On the forward grip strap.
6” barrel
2 pins in the frame
No recoil shield,
It is Nickle
Hinge, latch and extractor look to be blued
Hammer and trigger are case hardened
I has the slot for the revolver hand and it has the cylinder stop
As best I can tell it probably 90%+ condition with minor spots in the nickel. Roll marks, edges are sharp, no signs of polishing.
It also has proof marks but not sure which country.
Couldn’t find any other Serial numbers on it. Looked at the latch, extractor and barrel.
First, is this a 1st model?, transition model?
It’s priced at $599. High, low??
Thanks for any input.
Update: Received the letter from Mr. Jinks. It did leave the factory as a single shot nickel with a 6” barrel, Sept 30th, 1902.
Shipped to Birmingham England as a special order of 2 units. The sights are not original.
George
 

Attachments

  • 123CF8EB-9119-46A8-ABD6-91C950E5E1A9.jpg
    123CF8EB-9119-46A8-ABD6-91C950E5E1A9.jpg
    77.2 KB · Views: 13
Last edited:
Register to hide this ad
Yes, basically a 1st Model. Yes, lacking the recoil shields, can be considered a so-called transitional model----perhaps more properly an evolutionary model. As an aside of whatever merit one might attach to it, I have heard tell of pistols without the recoil shields, but have never seen one. Now, if along with no recoil shields, it DOES have the vertical grooves on the frame (common to 2nd and 3rd Models), then we're back to "transitional", and off of "evolutionary". Given the serial number, I'm inclined to suspect it has the grooves. By the same token ("Given the serial number") I'm a bit startled to see a hand slot and cylinder stop.

Given that you know where to look for the "other" serial numbers, and they're not there, my knee-jerk reaction is you have a "put together" or "frankengun". That being the case, the price strikes me as reasonable. Otherwise, it strikes me as a bit low (@ 90%+).

Ralph Tremaine
 
Last edited:
1st model nickel SS

I checked my 2nd model which is nickel with all matching numbers, latch & sights, hinge are blued, but the extractor is nickel, trigger & guard case colored. The lack of numbered parts would point to what Ralph said, a put together pistol. Nickel single shots are not common, I would be there tomorrow and would buy it as it sounds to be in decent condition [after offering less]. I would then spend the money for a letter, just to know how it left the factory.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the input guys. This pistol did not have the vertical grooves so maybe we are either an evolutionary model or most likely a Frankengun. The other odd thing is the European proof marks on the frame and barrel. I have taken a risk and bought guns I didn’t know much about before and have mostly come out a winner so I may give this one a shot, then send for a letter.
 
The lack of serial numbers on the several fitted parts is what says "frankengun"----that fact only.

The lack of vertical grooves says an "evolutionary" example----a seldom seen one at that.

Look at the several "transitional"/"evolutionary" configurations like this: The 2nd Model is what the 1st Model should have been. Okay, but it wasn't---so how'd it get to be what it is? Let's ask some big wig at S&W.

You say this (1st Model) is a single shot------------------------

Why does it have recoil shields, cuts for a hand and cylinder stop, and the hand and cylinder stop installed (and functioning for God's sake)----what on earth were you thinking?!!!!! Answer: Well, we started off thinking we'd make some single shot barrels that would fit on this revolver---and see how the folks liked it.'' They could get a single shot barrel for their wheelgun, you see.

So how'd they like it? Well, they liked it okay; but it didn't set the world on fire, so we figured we'd make a single shot with those same pieces, and see how that went.

And-------?

Well, we sold some; and the folks who bought them did pretty well in the shooting matches; but some of them took the hand and the cylinder stop out----said it smoothed things up some.

Did it?

Well not so's you'd notice, but these folks are a little nutty; and we don't argue with them.

So what happened then?

Well the boss took notice of all these revolver things on a single shot, and asked us why they were there---and did we know how much it cost to have them there----and accused us of trying to put him out of business---he got right cranky about the whole thing.

So what'd you do then?

We took 'em off--started taking 'em off a little at a time---here and there, you know---and ended up without any of them.

What happened then?

Well, we sold about three or four times as many as we sold the first time around---and the folks did well in the shooting matches---and the word got around that we made good stuff---and the boss stayed upstairs---and everybody was happy----or at least not mad.

So what's with these grooves on the side of the frame on these new ones---are they just for looks?

I'm glad you asked about those---the boss asked about 'em too---asked how much they cost. We told him the folks liked the way the first gun felt in the hand----the way it balanced you know---so we fiddled around a bit, and the engineers told us if we'd take a little weight off----just a little---and right about there---that the gun would balance almost exactly the same as the first one. So we did---and it did----and the boss stayed upstairs.

This story can be continued some time---and take us from the 2nd to the 3rd---and tell us why the frame floor is flat---and the barrel lug is flat---and why it's gouged out in the middle, and chamfered on the sides---but at least some of you have already figured that out.

To be continued----or not, if you have something better to do with your time----like pound sand down a rat hole.

Ralph Tremaine
 
Last edited:
Ok man I'm in rat holes all filled up for now . Seriously though threads like this is why rip off artists hate you guys .That was pretty dang intertaining Mr T as well as informative.
 
Last edited:
Here is my guess -The original owner wanted to keep up with his competitors' new-fangled 2rd or 3rd Models and had the recoil shield removed so it did not look "old fashioned". Since there are only a handful of these at best out there, they all could have had their shields removed by a gunsmith. The partial serial number is enough to say that it does not appear in the known list in Neal & Jink book, but that list is no absolute guarantee of authenticity.

I replied to a question on the SWCA Member side about the 38 Single Action revolver and its association to unnumbered single-shots. I am attaching the images that ran in the 1900, 1903, and 1906 catalogs and a price sheet from a 1906 catalog. I had to reduce the quality to post here so ther image is a little fuzzy. The target sight is midway down in the right column and the barrels are in the lower right corner. at least three years of catalogs had the same single shot pages and offered them for sale. Barrels and target sight/latches were available from the factory for at least 6 years, plus we know that many barrels were still left-over and ultimately sold off from the factory in bulk lots. I agree with Ralph that if the gun does not have standard serial number stampings, it is unlikely it's original. Back then you needed a letter, postage stamp and $9.75 to order the barrel and target latch directly from the company. I also guess that large distributors ordered barrels to either sell or assemble their own Single Shots.

Ralph - is there any evidence that the factory ever removed recoil shields to sell as 2nd Models?
 

Attachments

  • 1903 S&W SS Catalog.jpg
    1903 S&W SS Catalog.jpg
    46.8 KB · Views: 50
  • 1906S&WPriceList2.jpg
    1906S&WPriceList2.jpg
    153.2 KB · Views: 33
One more vote in agreement with the others. It may or may not be right, but it can't be wrong for $599 (or less). We will wait for the pictures.

Bob
 
Bought it.

Alright, after Ralph’s story I had to buy it. I may have been a little generous on the 90% but I’ve never owned one of these little pistols. The only number I could find on the latch or the ejector is a ‘17’’ stamped on the ejector backside. Here’s the pictures before any cleanup. More pics to follow.
George
 

Attachments

  • B63DB8B1-C8F9-48D5-A382-C843C2379B13.jpg
    B63DB8B1-C8F9-48D5-A382-C843C2379B13.jpg
    124.6 KB · Views: 95
  • 348BF261-A5F7-4C3E-ABFB-E580001F1808.jpg
    348BF261-A5F7-4C3E-ABFB-E580001F1808.jpg
    100 KB · Views: 86
  • D7F1BB04-EA57-4C0C-ACDB-363ECA81E437.jpg
    D7F1BB04-EA57-4C0C-ACDB-363ECA81E437.jpg
    100 KB · Views: 82
  • 8D867C7F-D35D-484D-80B1-A4DA83518D65.jpg
    8D867C7F-D35D-484D-80B1-A4DA83518D65.jpg
    88.7 KB · Views: 80
More Pics of the single shot.

More Pictures. I looked up the Proof marks, ‘Birmingham’ since 1904.
 

Attachments

  • 75501D76-81EC-49E8-92DE-FF19823962CC.jpg
    75501D76-81EC-49E8-92DE-FF19823962CC.jpg
    92.2 KB · Views: 54
  • CBFB64FD-5464-427C-A2BF-050E32FB6EA8.jpg
    CBFB64FD-5464-427C-A2BF-050E32FB6EA8.jpg
    80.5 KB · Views: 58
  • 42415B73-A4D9-45E5-B736-C025B67A5DA9.jpg
    42415B73-A4D9-45E5-B736-C025B67A5DA9.jpg
    116.9 KB · Views: 74
  • 1DC3FF1B-D77D-4F1E-A5CD-0BEFD0BD505A.jpg
    1DC3FF1B-D77D-4F1E-A5CD-0BEFD0BD505A.jpg
    100.5 KB · Views: 48
"Ralph - is there any evidence that the factory ever removed recoil shields to sell as second models?"

I'm not sure I understand your question.

If you're asking if the same forging die was used for 1st and 2nd model frames, I don't know. I reckon the answer lies in the cost---does it cost less for a new/different/reconstructed die than it does to remove the shields(?). If they had a new die for the 2nds AND some leftover 1st frames with shields when they were into 2nd's, I reckon they did----costs less than throwing them out. When you look at the so-called "transitional" models (1st's that look like 2nd's), you see a frame WITHOUT shields, WITH grooves----AND with two pins. On the face of it, that makes no sense at all. That frame (with grooves and two pins) had the pin holes drilled to be a 1st Model. Given that, it stands to reason it also had shields on it---AND that they were removed. (Now we need to see/recognize that these "transitional" models CAN be either 1st's OR 2nds----and the ONLY difference is the serial number. A "transitional" with a number (within the 2nd Model numbers) is going to letter as a 2nd Model. A gun with the EXACT SAME configuration, and with a high number (outside the 2nd Model numbers) is going to letter as a 1st Model. I realize this begs the question---I threw it in to add to the confusion.)

So----now lets go back to this gun---no shields---no grooves---AND a high number---clearly a 1st. We know from seeing the "transitional models" they had already decided the grooves matter BEFORE the 2nd Model came to be. The same goes for recoil shields. The high number says this is a later 1st---later than some of the "transitionals" even (As best as I recall.). The cuts for hand and cylinder stop says this is a regular, everyday 1st---so go figure. Enter the ducks: If it looks like/swims like/quacks like, it is one. Somebody already said it: The shields were removed from this gun. Is it possible the factory did it? Sure---special order. Is it likely? At this point, I want to sit and stare at the gun---has it been refinished (as it most certainly would have been if the shields were removed after it left Springfield). Now, if the factory did it, it's more than likely they did it to a finished gun in inventory and refinished it---and I'm comfortable in saying those that can distinguish a factory refinish from original are few and far between. (I have a factory refinished gun (and had another). I KNOW they were refinished because I'm the one who had it done. I defy anyone to show me anything on the gun I still have that indicates a refinish. As to the other gun, I sold it to an erstwhile friend. I told him it had been refinished. He said that was no problem---that he was going to keep it forever. As it stood---as a like new, original gun, it would fetch $4,000. I sold it for $1,000---what I had in it. He apparently succumbed to our constant companions, avarice and greed---and sold it---for $4,000. Whoever paid that $4,000 is very much more than likely an experienced collector who lays out fairly big bucks on a more or less regular basis---one who can spot a refinished gun. He very clearly didn't spot that one!! Like I said----an erstwhile friend.

To add further to the confusion, pretty much all this assumes the guns were made in serial order. I know for a fact some of them were---by virtue of a copy of one page from the shipping records I have. It treats with 1st Model Single Shots from 14201 to 14300. EVERY SINGLE ONE of those guns are SS's---or at least appears to be. (Thirteen of them were shipped to the same distributor, and it doesn't say what they are.) They clearly dedicated certain blocks of numbers to be SS's. When you look at the 1st Model serial numbers in N&J, you're going to see other examples of dedicated blocks of serial numbers. AND you're going to see 1st Model numbers that appear willy-nilly----nothing orderly or dedicated about them. So the guns were made in serial order----sometimes----and sometimes not----another day at the office!

As is often the case, a letter is likely going to solve this mystery (to one degree or another). If this gun letters as a special order-----AND (as is also often the case) offers no clue as to what's special about it, then we're into sit and stare mode. We soon see it has no shields---and we know it should have. Is there anything else "special" about it? No? It follows the shields were removed by the factory--albeit not to sell as a 2nd Model. In the for what it's worth department, I have higher number 1st's with shields----quite a bit higher numbers.

I have heard of guns (1st's) ostensibly shipped with no shields----what I would call an "evolutionary" gun. I have never seen one. It at least makes sense that such guns happened. If anybody has ever seen one, it's Terry Wagner. If anybody has ever really studied this entire matter, it's Terry Wagner. If he sees this, and chooses to get involved, you can take what he says as gospel. Otherwise------------the mystery continues.

(I have a letter with that phrase in it-----"the mystery continues". It's a letter on an 8" .32 caliber 1st Model Single Shot. The letter says it's a 10" .22. Then it says "the mystery continues"----really burns my butt!! Oh well.)

Ralph Tremaine

And now that I've seen the pictures of this gun, the shields were SORT OF ground off, and I submit there's no way in hell the factory did that (but certainly could have).

AND---Chapter Last---it wouldn't surprise me to learn the shield stubs were simply polished---and the gun wasn't refinished.
 
Last edited:
Flitz

Model52guy, my nickel plated 2nd model was three different colors, go buy a bottle of Flitz polish [hard to find, bought mine online] and using a soft cloth it will even the finish out like this one as shown in photo.
 

Attachments

  • DSCF4770 (2).jpg
    DSCF4770 (2).jpg
    201.7 KB · Views: 53
Ol777,
I have Flitz and will get it cleaned up. Wanted to get the pictures out first to get input on what I bought. Plan to send for a letter on Monday which might clear things or add more mud to the water.
Thanks,
George
 
EPILOGUE--------------

Well, try as we might to make a big deal out of this-----we failed.

I predict the letter will be the usual plain vanilla----shipped to so and so on such and such date--- a statistically valid prediction. I hope it's wrong.

But you never know until you ask!

Ralph Tremaine

One final suggestion: Go over the gun's exterior with bronze wool (0000) and some oil---with only light to moderate pressure---let the bronze wool do the work-------BEFORE you start in with any sort of polishing compound. I did that---once---with the only nickel gun I've ever owned. The finish was all frosty. It looked like new in a matter of minutes!!
 
Last edited:
"Ralph - is there any evidence that the factory ever removed recoil shields to sell as second models?"

I'm not sure I understand your question.

What I was asking is if you know of any "transitional" SS pistols being lettered as such or any factory records that document a 1st Model with recoil shields removed at the factory?

I think your last post kind of answered the question. I also see that, with the images, it looks like a homemade solution to a perceived issue many decades ago. Still a neat old target pistol.
 
Interesting that the stubs of the recoil shields are still on the gun. The 'other' interesting part (probably to me only) is that the groove cut in the frame for the 2nd Model is farther back on the frame than where the recoil shield would be.
 
What I was asking is if you know of any "transitional" SS pistols being lettered as such or any factory records that document a 1st Model with recoil shields removed at the factory?

I think your last post kind of answered the question. I also see that, with the images, it looks like a homemade solution to a perceived issue many decades ago. Still a neat old target pistol.

I vaguely recall a letter using the terminology, and describing the pistol as "transitional", but I'm pretty sure it was a 3rd Model; or what one might think of as a prototype 3rd Model---and the letter may have used the term "prototype" rather than "transitional"---seeing as how there's not much that transitioned from 2nd to third (besides the barrel). And having said that, I'm going to say it is/was Dean Johnson's pistol. If he takes note of this, he can confirm or deny my fuzzy memory of all this. I also dimly recall seeing photos of the gun and very possibly the letter as well. I can't say if he sent them to me, or posted them here----maybe both. Rather than wait around to see if he comes across all this and responds, I'll get in touch with him, and we'll see what's what.

Ralph Tremaine
 
WE'LL HEAR ABOUT IT----LOUD AND CLEAR!!

Ralph, Hoping the letter shows it was a special order for Winston Churchill. If not, I will have a great little target gun.

If it shipped to Sir Winston, we will hear the cheers of joy throughout the land!!!!

I bought a K-22/40 awhile back---only because it was better than the one I already had---and dutifully sent off for a letter.

It arrived.

I sat down to read it.

The Boss Lady heard a shriek coming from my room----and came to see what all the fuss was about. She recognized the letter in my hands, and asked, "Lousy letter?"

"Quite the contrary!" says I----and proceeded to read aloud; "-----was shipped from our factory on March 21, 1940 and delivered to Philip B. Sharpe---------. This revolver was shipped on an advertising account at no charge to Mr. Sharpe. This is a very important revolver."

"WOW!!" says she.

"For sure!!!" says I.

Ralph Tremaine

A little hand written note accompanied the letter----another first for me. "This K-22 is a great find. Roy"
 
Last edited:
factory letter on "Transition Variation" 3rd Model

I vaguely recall a letter . . . describing the pistol as "transitional", but I'm pretty sure it was a 3rd Model; or what one might think of as a prototype 3rd Model---and the letter may have used the term "prototype" rather than "transitional"---seeing as how there's not much that transitioned from 2nd to third (besides the barrel). And having said that, I'm going to say it is/was Dean Johnson's pistol. If he takes note of this, he can confirm or deny my fuzzy memory of all this. I also dimly recall seeing photos of the gun and very possibly the letter as well. I can't say if he sent them to me, or posted them here----maybe both. Rather than wait around to see if he comes across all this and responds, I'll get in touch with him, and we'll see what's what. Ralph Tremaine

I do indeed possess a 3rd Model Single Shot (No. 4007, 1910) that has some major attributes of a 2nd Model, and which the factory letter designates as a ".22 Single Shot 3rd Model, Transition Variation." There is no doubt it is a 3rd Model -- it has the double-action clockwork. I have so far been unable to find documentation of any surviving 3rd Model that has a lower serial number, although the letter suggests they may exist or have existed with numbers as low as 3874.

In 2006 I started a thread that contains photos comparing a typical 2nd Model, my 3rd Model Transition Variation No. 4007, and a typical 3rd Model -- it is here. That thread also contains images of the factory letter on No. 4007.

Douglas D. Johnson
 
Last edited:
Back
Top