Model of 91 single shot Nickel “UPdated”

Ok now my problem is how do I remember all this stuff when I'm at the gun shows ,used gun stores ect and see something that looks " interesting" just about time I start learning the differences between 3rd model ,2nd model ect then I find out there are "transitional "models . I kind of got interested in collecting S&Ws because I quickly learned that a true collection of colts would just be out of range for me financially now I find out that S&Ws may be out of range intellectually for me .
 
Terry Wagner took note of this thread, and sent me some words of wisdom---and some pictures. If Terry needs an introduction to any of you, suffice it to say he has forgotten more about single shots than the rest of us know. Add to that he apparently has never seen a single shot he didn't like---and seemingly takes home every one he's ever seen-----and he's been doing so for a loooooooooong time. The result is he has a rather complete collection of all the regular stuff---AND of every odd-ball configuration I've ever seen!!

The bottom line here is the recoil shield "stubs" on Model52guy's gun may very well have, and dare I say probably did come that way from the factory----which is to say Terry has some like it.

As an aside, he also has a rather spiffy example of a 1st Model with no shields and no grooves. I rather suspect if he were to take the time to sort them out, and line them up, we'd see an example of every single evolutionary step taken from 1st to 2nd.

Ralph Tremaine
 
Sent for the letter yesterday. Maybe Roy will give us some insight.

It's likely---IF---if you asked specific questions---and sent pictures. If you did not (do both), you may wish to send an email asking them to set your request aside until you can get it done. He's good about responding to specific questions----especially on the older guns (seemingly his favorites).

RT
 
This just in from Terry Wagner (in response to a question from me on these recoil shield stubs):

"I find it strange the cut down recoil shield areas look the same on three I have seen. I am kind of like you and don't know what left the factory in which configuration."

So--------------we shall see what we shall see when the letter arrives----and might well end up exactly where we are now----with best guesses.

All this reminds of a single shot barrel I have. It's essentially as new. It carries no serial number (which is to say it came from the Parts Department---not from a gun).

It's a 1st Model barrel (carries the Model of '91 barrel address), .38 caliber, 6". It is a complete barrel assembly-----complete with extractor cam/latch/sights---ready to bolt on a frame and shoot. It's more than worth noting the sights are those from a 3rd Model---a VASTLY superior sight to those on the 1st/2nd. It is also worth noting the barrel lug is ground to the EXACT SAME configuration as that on a 3rd Model (and finished with cold blue), so it's ready to bolt onto ANY frame---1st/2nd/3rd----and shoot.

In asking around about it, I was told the factory modified some/many/all the single shot barrels they had in inventory at the time---so they'd fit/function with any top-break single shot. It makes sense.

As is my usual practice with mysteries such as this, I asked Roy last. His response: "It never happened!"

Not being one to give up easily, I went back to asking around some more----this time ending my story with Roy's response---"It never happened!".

It was my good fortune to stumble upon another Single Shot nut at an unofficial (regional) SWCA meeting not all that long ago---and his response was, "Yeah---I have some just like it."

A brief digression to talk about things that make sense----or not. As noted earlier, the lug on my barrel is ground to the exact same configuration as those on a 3rd Model. It's worth noting right about now that simply grinding it flat (and shortening it a bit) is all that's necessary for it to fit on a 3rd Model---there's no need for what I call the "fancy flat" configuration provided by the factory. Then of course the next question that pops up is why would anybody other than the factory (who has all the tooling and set-up to do "fancy flat") go to all the trouble to duplicate it? Hmmmmm??!!!!!

Then I decided that when Roy says, "It never happened!", what he really means is he's never found anything in writing to prove it happened-----and would I please go away and stop bothering him with my nit-picky questions. You might want to keep this in mind if your letter says "It never happened!"----all the while also remembering Mr. Terry has seen three of them----and you have one too!!

As an example of things that "never happened" might well be applied to the dozen or more different target sights made/used by S&W over the years. There's no question they existed. Also no question S&W made them. The question is how come we can't find anything to prove it---other than our lying eyes? Here's the answer----direct from Roy----HISSELF!!-----in writing!!

"This type of sight (Editor's Note: And instead of "sight", feel free to plug in any other mysterious thing that strikes your fancy----such as recoil shield stubs.) is not mentioned in the Smith & Wesson engineering change book. This is not a surprise as many of what the foreman considered as minor changes is not recorded." I translate this as follows: If you have a problem with not being able to find out about anything the foreman considered a minor change, it's just too damn bad----SUFFER!!

Ralph Tremaine

As a response to a (private) challenge of sorts about the records on sights. S&W DOES have records on sights---some of them. They have records on the three they patented---one of which they used---the so-called "Micrometer" sight introduced on the K-22/40 (K-22 2nd Model)----and essentially the same sight in use today. (Per the late Robert J. Neal)
 
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FIRST MODEL SINGLE SHOTS

Ralph,

The barrels with no serial numbers have shown up on a great number of frames after serial 17,000 to 25,000... A great number of these letter as the correct configuration.

There also are a good number of single .32 and .38 "old factory complete barrels" with serial numbers from "lettered" "sold as a .22" single shot pistol.

So.... Was the barrel on an assembled single shot when an order came in for a different configuration... removed... replaced with the requested barrel??
I don't know but this may explain so many non-serial numbered barrels on numbered frames in the later 15,000 to 28,000 guns. Maybe in the exchange there was no need to number the barrel to keep up with which frame to put it on. I don't know!

Where the frame is numbered, front strap or butt...All those that say that a serial number on the butt of the frame, must have been sold as a revolver.... Must have never seen the butt numbered single shots, "lettered" as a single shot, and sports a butt number.

Terry Wagner
 
Any such "pre-delivery exchange" of components would have been done by the Service Department. They work on one gun at a time. Given no need for batch finishing, there is no need to be able to identify parts from any gun besides the one on the bench. Accordingly there is no need to number new/replacement parts---and they didn't.

I have a Model of '91 revolver. It letters as shipped as target. The latch/sight is unnumbered------which caused me no end of worry----until the letter arrived. The paragraph above is the essence of Roy's explanation for the unnumbered latch---they converted a standard gun.

The moral of this story is don't holler until you're hurt.


Ralph Tremaine
 
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Update in the Model of ‘91 single shot

I responded to the wrong thread the first time but maybe it applies to both.
Just got the letter today from Roy. My 1st model single shot SN 20731, is almost righteous. It was shipped September 30, 1902 to Charles Osborne’s Co. in Birmingham England. It was shipped as nickle with a 6” barrel as a special order of 2 units. Roy’s letter indicates the sights are not original. I believe the nickle finish is original as the British proof marks are sharp and are stamped into the nickle. I also assume the recoil shields were removed at the factory leaving the stubs, as the finish is original.
Hopefully it is worth more than I paid for it.
 

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