Model Three First Contract Russians

jleiper

jleiper

US Veteran, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
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I am new to the forum. I collect Russian weapons and that includes the Model Threes bought and used by the Imperial Russians.

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1st, 2nd and 3rd Issue First Russian Contract revolvers.


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1st, 2nd and 3rd issues
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The "hacksaw" test model

Joe
 
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Joe, those are some beautiful revolvers you have. Thanks for the pictures and congratulations on those beauties.
 
Thanks! I've worked very hard to build my collection of cyrillic marked revolvers. There are only about 30-40 First Contract revolvers known. There are probably more in closets someplace, but regardless the survival rate of the 20,000 First Contract revolvers is ridiculously low.
The first issues - only approximately 500 made - are ultra rare with only 2 known! No. 211 is shown.
Second Issues with about 2000 made - only 6 or 7 known.
Third issues with around 17,500 made - maybe 25-30 known.
I have only 25 First Contracts on my serial list built with the help of several European collectors.
Joe
 
jleiper, Nice collection! As you probably know, some of these Russian Contract revolvers are not cyrillic stamped, but were shipped to Russia. The late Fred Datig, who spent time at the Tula Arsenal and the Heritage Museum in Russia, was writing a lengthy book on Russian contract revolvers, etc. I reviewed his manuscript some years ago and he had quite a bit of data and serial numbers of viewed guns listed, etc. Unfortunately, the whereabouts of his papers is unknown today.
You might want to consider joining the S&WCA, as our private data base, available to members only, may list more serial numbers of these guns. Details on how to join are in links on this Forum. Good Luck, Ed.
 
opoefc said:
jleiper, Nice collection! As you probably know, some of these Russian Contract revolvers are not cyrillic stamped, but were shipped to Russia. The late Fred Datig, who spent time at the Tula Arsenal and the Heritage Museum in Russia, was writing a lengthy book on Russian contract revolvers, etc. I reviewed his manuscript some years ago and he had quite a bit of data and serial numbers of viewed guns listed, etc. Unfortunately, the whereabouts of his papers is unknown today.
You might want to consider joining the S&WCA, as our private data base, available to members only, may list more serial numbers of these guns. Details on how to join are in links on this Forum. Good Luck, Ed.
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Actually, ALL of the CONTRACT revolvers were marked in Cyrillic. However, there were a substantial number of revolvers purchased by the Russian Officers supply stores as well as the Russian government that were commercials - well over 10,000 additional revolvers.
I discussed this at length with Fred before his passing. His wife has his manuscripts and will not show them to anyone unless they are willing to buy them.
I have access to a copy of the serial number surveys on Russians done by the Smith and Wesson Assoc years ago and there isn't much there on the Russians.
BTW The most interesting S&W examples are in the Artillery, Engineering and Communications Troops museum in St. Petersburg although the cutaway at Tula is really nice. I don't have a Smith Russian cutaway!

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A period ad from a supply selling commercials

I will be joining the S&WCA.
Joe
 
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Joe, Glad to hear you are going to join the S&W Collectors Association. If you need a sponsor, let me know. I purposely mentioned that the location of Datig's manuscript was unknown, as I didn't want looky loos bothering his wife. He had several books partially written on various firearms, as he had planned to do a series of about a dozen books, but unfortunately time caught up with Fred. He had gun knowledge no one else had, from his time with Ludwig Loewe and the years as curator of King Farouk's vast arms collection, which is still intact in Cairo, last I heard, but unavailable to researchers Fred told me. Ed.
 
You're correct about Fred's knowledge! He had completed the Nagant and Smith and Wesson manuscripts, but the rest were in various stages of completion. What a loss!
When Fred and I last talked, we agreed on one thing in particular about the history of Russian weapons - all the sources disagree. Some of this is due to the way things are documented and some is just due to historians not having sources or being able to look at original weapons and just making things up to fill the space. Once something is published, particularly in Russia, it just gets quoted, word for word, over and over again until it becomes the accepted truth.

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My specialty these days is really the Russian Nagant revolver and Russian/Soviet used revolvers in general. A fascinating subject!
Joe
 
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Joe, Fred and I went way back to the days when he was writing his cartridge books and visited my antique gun shop for specimens, etc. and we would swap "war stories" about his combat adventures in WW2 Europe. His S&W book on the top break big frames was pretty much complete except for photos of the guns. I tried for several years to locate examples of the type of guns you collect, and others, for photos that Fred could use, but with little success. Maybe somebody like yourself could pick up the effort where Fred left off and complete his book. Ed.
 
opoefc said:
Joe, Fred and I went way back to the days when he was writing his cartridge books and visited my antique gun shop for specimens, etc. and we would swap "war stories" about his combat adventures in WW2 Europe. His S&W book on the top break big frames was pretty much complete except for photos of the guns. I tried for several years to locate examples of the type of guns you collect, and others, for photos that Fred could use, but with little success. Maybe somebody like yourself could pick up the effort where Fred left off and complete his book. Ed.
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You are right, but we probably need to take the balance of this conversation off line. [email protected]

I actually have more cyrillic marked Smiths than any other collector I've heard of, and more than most, if not all, of the Museums in Russia - at least that's what my Russian friends tell me. I've heard of a collection in Finland that may have more examples, but not the diversity. I will try to share photos and information here as time goes by.
Joe
 
Welcome to the forum! Could you please post pictures! There is a lot of diversity in these and pictures would help tremendously.
Joe
 
HTML:
gmborkovic said:
Yea Joe, take the balance of the conversation off line.
We are not in the privileged club to learn from this exchange.
Just feed the SNOB theory. Best, Mike
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You're right. You don't need to know about my efforts to get the manuscripts and see that the information was published. It has been more than five years since Fred's passing and you haven't seen the information published so it has likely been lost.
Joe
 
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Guys. Can you both cuss at each other in Russian so we don't know what one's saying. Sort of like my in-laws; Dutch - with a lot of hissing and spitting sounds.
 
This an update post, in case members may not be aware. My old friends, Joe Leiper and Fred Datig have joined the rest of my Absent Companions at the Great Gun Show in the Sky . Lets hope that somehow down the line their massive data collections of all things Russian regarding S&W can see the light from researchers to come. Ed
 
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