Modern ammunition in .32 S&W

[deadin]

Tom,
Thanks! For 60+ years I've always thought that BP exploded. (After all it is listed as an explosive where smokeless isn't considered to be in the same class)
Also, from empirical observation, dropping a match on a pile of BP shows that it sure burns a whole lot faster than dropping a match on a pile of Bullseye.

As an aside, what's the difference between "explosion" and "detonation"??

 

[merl67]

Does anyone have experience or documentation of any topbreak S&W blowing up or becoming unshootable from using modern loaded vintage calibers. I would imagine the ammunition companies have ran their own test and probably have pushed the limits to know where the safety margin is for all the calibers they load for. Take the 8mm Mauser I have quite a bit of experience with both factory, surplus, and my own hand loads all the American brands are loaded with the German 88 Commision rifle in mind. I would imagine the ammunition companies have done the same thing and found the weakest type of topbreak or even tip up they thought would be used and loaded said ammo that would be safe in that gun. Just my uneducated two cents worth.

 

[SkipD1]

As an aside, what's the difference between "explosion" and "detonation"??

There are many types of "explosions". The rate at which the material burns (subsonic vs supersonic) determines whether an explosion is termed "deflagration" (subsonic such as all firearm ammunition igniting normally) or "detonation" (such as all high explosives such as TNT, dynamite, etc.).

Thus, a "detonation" IS an "explosion" but not all explosions are detonations.

A quick Google search brought up several web sites on the subject, one being Explosions: Deflagration Versus Detonation

 

[Jim Watson]

"Does anyone have experience or documentation of any topbreak S&W blowing up or becoming unshootable from using modern loaded vintage calibers."

David Chicoine said that he was getting a lot more top breaks in to repair as CAS got popular. He interpreted that to mean that people were taking the easy way out and shooting the old guns with smokeless.
But I wonder if maybe the problem was that people were SHOOTING old guns more than their Grandpas did.

I wonder what the service life of a top break was for Walter Winans or the Bennett Brothers, who competed and practiced.

 

[merl67]

Jim thanks I wonder what kind of repairs he was getting. Those of us that have these know that the weak link in these are the springs mainly the smaller ones and that wear would come no matter what powder was used. I would imagine most are like me and do not shoot their antiques as much as their modern guns. I don't imagine people back in the day shot nearly as much for fun as we do today.

 

[Jim Watson]

I think he mentioned top strap stretching and latch loosening.
But I no longer have the book.

 

[glowe]

I am quite sure that CAS shooters shoot more rounds with their antique revolvers than were ever shot by our ancestors. Ammunition was expensive in the late 1800s. I have a 1881 US Cartridge Catalog showing that 45 Colt was $24/1000, 44 Russian was $22/1000, down to 32 S&W for $12/1000.

Wages in 1880 were pennies per hour. Here are some average hourly wages:

Occupation . . . 1860 . . . 1870 . . . 1880 . . . 1890
blacksmith . . .0.178 . . .0.304 . . .0.259 . . . 0.271
carpenter . . . . 0.182 . . .0.410 . . .0.276 . . . 0.322
machinist . . . . 0.158 . . .0.260 . . .0.227 . . . 0.243
laborers . . . . . 0.098 . . .0.156 . . .0.135 . . .0.151

Laborers got 13 cents per hour. I would have taken a days pay to buy a box of 45 Colt ammo. I know my grandfather would not have "wasted" a single shot and when I received his one and only revolver, made in 1904, there was still a quarter box of early 1900s ammo that came with it. When someone says they received many guns for repair, I would not include something that was blown up as a repair candidate, so most likely springs, worn parts, etc. These guns were not new when the most recent owners came into possession, so who knows what indignities were bestowed from previous owners or wear from honest use over the last 100+ years before a CAS shooter got hold of it.

 

[haggis]

If someone is looking for a "modern" revolver with which to shoot .32 S&W, I suggest S&W hand ejectors model 30 and 31, which have been around in some form since 1903 (BTW, these revolvers are chambered for .32 Long, a "magnum" compared to .32 Short ). Mine shoots well.

Buck

 

[TIMETRIPPER]

If someone is looking for a "modern" revolver with which to shoot .32 S&W, I suggest S&W hand ejectors model 30 and 31, which have been around in some form since 1903 (BTW, these revolvers are chambered for .32 Long, a "magnum" compared to .32 Short ). Mine shoots well.

Haggis,
i think the desire is to shoot the old S&W revolvers chambered for the 32 S&W, an older top break model, not simply to shoot the 32 S&W. TBH I find the shorter round harder to find and usually a little pricier.

But, lately I've been shooting any factory 32 S&W I find in my 32 hand ejectors, then reload them mild with Trailboss for the top breaks in my collection.

John

 

[DWalt]

I just had to comment on the fallacy of the following statement:

"I'm not sure that any manufacturer is obligated to charge their ammunition to the oldest gun that will chamber it. SAAMI specifications take a lot of things into consideration, but I've never read anything empirical to suggest that this is a consideration"

There is most certainly an obligation, and a very strong one. And it is enforced by an army of trial lawyers who love to sue on even the weakest of product liability grounds if anyone is injured.

Many may not be aware that smokeless powder handgun ammunition has been factory loaded in the USA since 1896, and at that time there were no handguns made other than those for black powder cartridges.

 

[first-model]

There is most certainly an obligation, and a very strong one. And it is enforced by an army of trial lawyers who love to sue on even the weakest of product liability grounds if anyone is injured.

Many may not be aware that smokeless powder handgun ammunition has been factory loaded in the USA since 1896, and at that time there were no handguns made other than those for black powder cartridges.

Respectfully, someone that brings suit against an ammunition manufacturer because their 120+ year old gun broke is going to get laughed out of the courtroom.

I think we may agree to disagree on this one, and that's cool.

Mike

 

[deadin]

Then again, no ammo manufacturer is going to want the reputation of their ammo blowing up guns...... (Just sayin'......)

 

[DWalt]

I will absolutely guarantee that if a shooter or bystander is seriously injured as the result of firing modern ammunition in an old gun, it will be far from a laughing matter in court. The litigant's attorney will argue that the ammunition manufacturer knew, or should have known, that their ammunition fit and could be fired in an old gun, thereby constituting clear negligence on the part of the ammunition's manufacturer to ensure that their product is safe in all guns. And the litigant would probably win, possibly big, absent an out-of-court settlement.

 

[Skeetr57]

I don't think that most people here realize that the .32 S&W Long, the .38 S&W Special and the .44 S&W Special were all originally designed as BP cartridges. The extra case length was not needed to accommodate a charge of smokeless powder, but to accept more BP for more velocity, so all of the modern hand ejectors were designed around BP loaded ammo originally, but I don't hear people saying not to fire smokeless loaded ammo in a 1896 I frame .32 or a 1899 K frame .38 Special or an 1908 .44 triple lock. Recoil and velocity can not be used to compare smokeless and BP, only pressure counts. Black powder ammo with the same bullet weight and velocity will ALWAYS have more recoil than the same cartridge loaded with smokeless to the same velocity and with the same bullet weight. The only valid criteria to determine if a load is safe in a particular gun is the max pressure produced in comparison to what the gun was designed for.