Modified .44 Henry RF #3 Russian old model?
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mmaher94087
Member
Interesting piece. In photo 2/4, is that a CF bushing in the breach face or only marks from the recoil of fired rounds?
I am far from a expert, or even a novice but with that serial wouldn't it be a 3rd model Russian? i also see what looks like a centerfire bushing as Mike said.
3rd Model Russian
That High a serial number would be the Commercial third model Russian or Model of 1874. However, there were several thousand that went to The Turkish Government "after" being converted from 44 Centerfire to 44 Rimfire at the Turkish Government's request. I suppose this is one of them. I'd be interested in knowing what the chamber and bore measurements are. That would tell you what the original caliber was. If it was a 44 American the bore would measure .440. If it was a 44 Russian it would measure .430.
Some may have been converted from 44 American, but some are listed as actually being converted from 44 Russian which is nuts since the 44 Russian chambers are much larger so a very loose fit for a .44 Rimfire cartridge. The factory knew it but did it anyway because the Turkish Government had so many .44 Rimfire cartridges on hand I suppose? I don't know.
I know you collectors in France don't like to pay for factory letters but this one probably needs one to confirm its rarity.
Murph
That High a serial number would be the Commercial third model Russian or Model of 1874. However, there were several thousand that went to The Turkish Government "after" being converted from 44 Centerfire to 44 Rimfire at the Turkish Government's request. I suppose this is one of them. I'd be interested in knowing what the chamber and bore measurements are. That would tell you what the original caliber was. If it was a 44 American the bore would measure .440. If it was a 44 Russian it would measure .430.
Some may have been converted from 44 American, but some are listed as actually being converted from 44 Russian which is nuts since the 44 Russian chambers are much larger so a very loose fit for a .44 Rimfire cartridge. The factory knew it but did it anyway because the Turkish Government had so many .44 Rimfire cartridges on hand I suppose? I don't know.
I know you collectors in France don't like to pay for factory letters but this one probably needs one to confirm its rarity.
Murph
I don't know. I asked the owner about this detail. Waiting for his answer.
François
44 Rimfire
They are all Model 3 Russians. The point being this is one of those that were "Factory Converted" from 44 centerfire to 44 Rimfire. You have to determine which batch this was from. It's definitely not the first batch of 1000 44 rimfires. They were serial numbered in their own range. Those guns were ordered in 1874.
The second batch was ordered in 1877. 7,000 guns were in that batch. This is the "Converted Batch" listed from 44 centerfire to 44 rimfire at the request of the Turkish government.
This was also the batch that was originally chambered for the 44 Russian, so the cylinder chambers are oversized for the 44 Rimfire. The Turks were fighting the Russians at that time and needed arms desperately in 44 rimfire.
However, only 2000 of these guns were of the Model 3/2. 5000 of them were the Model 3/3.
So you have to determine which batch this one is from.
Again, ITS A 44 RUSSIAN "CONVERTED" to a 44 rimfire.
I'm also seeing a distinct difference in color from the barrel/cylinder assembly and the frame assembly which often is a sign that it's a "non matching set". Since these guns were used during a war its possible that the parts were separated and re-assembled as a "NON-Matching " set.
So, your buddy needs to check the assembly numbers to see if they match. It might be an earlier barrel on a later frame.
So, you might have a Model 3/ 2-3....LOL
Murph
They are all Model 3 Russians. The point being this is one of those that were "Factory Converted" from 44 centerfire to 44 Rimfire. You have to determine which batch this was from. It's definitely not the first batch of 1000 44 rimfires. They were serial numbered in their own range. Those guns were ordered in 1874.
The second batch was ordered in 1877. 7,000 guns were in that batch. This is the "Converted Batch" listed from 44 centerfire to 44 rimfire at the request of the Turkish government.
This was also the batch that was originally chambered for the 44 Russian, so the cylinder chambers are oversized for the 44 Rimfire. The Turks were fighting the Russians at that time and needed arms desperately in 44 rimfire.
However, only 2000 of these guns were of the Model 3/2. 5000 of them were the Model 3/3.
So you have to determine which batch this one is from.
Again, ITS A 44 RUSSIAN "CONVERTED" to a 44 rimfire.
I'm also seeing a distinct difference in color from the barrel/cylinder assembly and the frame assembly which often is a sign that it's a "non matching set". Since these guns were used during a war its possible that the parts were separated and re-assembled as a "NON-Matching " set.
So, your buddy needs to check the assembly numbers to see if they match. It might be an earlier barrel on a later frame.
So, you might have a Model 3/ 2-3....LOL
Murph
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Hi
Here's the pic
I seem to me that it's a bushing inserted into the breach face.
Oddly, this insertion is really well made, unlike the slot for the hammer that looks crudely cut.
What do you think about?
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mmaher94087
Member
Yup. Converted from centerfire to rimfire. I bet a letter would show that it went to Turkey.
Ok.
If I understand correctly, this Russian revolver has been made as a .44R centerfire, then converted - at the S&W factory for the turkish gvt - to .44 rimfire with a bushing occulting the original CF hammer pin hole.
Then it has been converted back (by an unknown people) to .44 centerfire with a new hammer slot cut into the bushing and a modified hammer pin.
It's why the bushing job is very well made and on the contrary, the hammer slot and pin shape a little bit... crude.
Effectively, it can be part of the second turkish order.
If I understand correctly, this Russian revolver has been made as a .44R centerfire, then converted - at the S&W factory for the turkish gvt - to .44 rimfire with a bushing occulting the original CF hammer pin hole.
Then it has been converted back (by an unknown people) to .44 centerfire with a new hammer slot cut into the bushing and a modified hammer pin.
It's why the bushing job is very well made and on the contrary, the hammer slot and pin shape a little bit... crude.
Effectively, it can be part of the second turkish order.
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Factory Converted
The existing hammer slot was done at the factory when converting from a 44 centerfire Russian to 44 rimfire at the request of the Turkish government.
The existing hammer? Who knows when that was done or by whom it was done?
You can see a photo and drawing of the factory conversion design of the "recoil shield" in Dr. Jinks book.
Murph
The existing hammer slot was done at the factory when converting from a 44 centerfire Russian to 44 rimfire at the request of the Turkish government.
The existing hammer? Who knows when that was done or by whom it was done?
You can see a photo and drawing of the factory conversion design of the "recoil shield" in Dr. Jinks book.
Murph
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Collectable value?
If it was mine I would get a factory letter for sure.
I would put the hammer back to rimfire. It seems to me that it's present condition could be machined back to a rimfire blade easily.
Also, I asked about matching numbers? Does it match? Barrel number match the frame number.
Even if it doesn't match? It's still worth a lot because its a 44 rimfire. Those are worth more typically. A miss-match in this case would be easily attributed to a War time re-assembly.
It's also low production.
The only thing in my opinion that negatively impacts its value is the fact that the chamber and bore are designed for a 44 Russian centerfire. I personally don't appreciate that fact but other collectors might see it as a rare oddity. So market value is subjective.
Murph
If it was mine I would get a factory letter for sure.
I would put the hammer back to rimfire. It seems to me that it's present condition could be machined back to a rimfire blade easily.
Also, I asked about matching numbers? Does it match? Barrel number match the frame number.
Even if it doesn't match? It's still worth a lot because its a 44 rimfire. Those are worth more typically. A miss-match in this case would be easily attributed to a War time re-assembly.
It's also low production.
The only thing in my opinion that negatively impacts its value is the fact that the chamber and bore are designed for a 44 Russian centerfire. I personally don't appreciate that fact but other collectors might see it as a rare oddity. So market value is subjective.
Murph
