Modified or Butchered?

the lightened hammers may be to accommodate lighter springs for trigger pull?
-modified for sure. i dont see any hammer marks or jb weld indicative of butchery ;)
theyre cool , but its like finding a jaguar xke with a small block...
 
kind of totally off topic , but....if you find the time, could you please shoot a close up of the proof/acceptance stamps on the mkII 1st model? is it one of the 5000 first sent to england?
i know very little as yet, but trying to learn...thanks .
 
Modified

A lot of work and gunsmith skill went into those guns at a time when the guns probably sold for $20 each. I like them, remember mass produced military arms were not collectables 60 years ago. They were cheap and everywhere, there were no computer websites and vast markets for such items as today. You worked with what came into the shop and the parts available. Old gunsmiths never threw anything away for fear that it can be used in a different way or "modified". Nice guns, I would have bought them too.
 
Bob,

The 12XXX range .455 TL does not fit in either the 1st or 2nd version 455 TL serial ranges; therefore can only be one of the 291 of the 3rd version at the bottom of this brief:


The 3 Versions of Hand Ejectors chambered in .455 Mk II for the British are:

1. ".44 HE 1st Model" TL, with .455 Mk II chambering: 812* factory reconfigured unassembled or unsold ".44 Spl HE 1st Models", often not .455 stamped, original chamberings unknown, 666 for the British thru #1104-10417, the extra 146 #9858-10007 for the commercial market; 123 in England and 23 in the US [N&J pgs. 204-205]. These 812 .455 TLs were serial #'d in the .44 1st Model serial # range of 1 to 15375. Shipped 1914-16.

* SCSW reports "over 800", but by serial # count, it's actually 812, 146 of which are commercial guns [S&WN&J pgs. 203, 204 & 205].

NOTE: Of the 146 .44 HE 1st Models that were reconfigured/built as .455s assembled some time after the first 666 military .44 1st Model .455 TLs and sold commercially, 123 were sold to the British, shipped to Wilkinson Sword 10/1/14 and 23 sold in the US, shipped to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis, MO. shipped on 1/1/1918.

The 23 at some point were converted to .45 Colt and it's unknown if by the factory before shipment to Shapleigh or after delivery to Shapleigh. However even IF converted by the factory (as suggested in a September 2013 Rock Island gun auction narrative), the revolvers would not have a star on the butt or a rework date on the grip frame because they did not go back to the factory for conversion as rework.

2. ".455 Mk II HE 1st Model", TL: New .455 British serial # range 1 to #5461 [HofSW pg. 201] made 1914-15. Thus creating a possible c. 68 of the 812 serial #s above duplicated with the .44 1st Model .455s.

3. ".455 Mk II HE 2nd Model": continued in the .455 1st Model British contract serial range beginning c. #5462 to #74755, made 1915-17. Feb 1916, 724 manufactured for the Canadians, chambered in 45 Colt, presumed for the RCMP [HofS&W, pg 203]. Canadians also bought 14,500 2nd Models. And 1105 2nd Models released for commercial sales in the US shipped Dec 1917 to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis [S&WN&J pg 216].

"As the Brit contracts were finishing up in [April] 1916, S&W found enough parts to build 691 .455 Triple Locks. These guns will be numbered in the 44 serial number series [HofS&W, pg 203]. I have no idea why they were not just numbered in the .455 series. Perhaps it was .455 barrels and cylinders that the factory found, and they simply turned again to existing 44 frames to use them up. They were sold commercially." Lee Jarrett


NOTE: in the SWCA database there are two entries for .455 TL's with serial numbers 12740 and 12747. Both entries list shipment to Shapleigh HW; Jinks' entry states that 325 units were shipped on 12/29/17.

On that 12/29/17 date, 1105 'over run' guns from the 2nd Model contract sold commercially in the USA, shipped to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis. Possibly Roy has identified 325 of those as TLs from the final 691 TLs built at the end of the 2nd contract. That leaves 366 (possibly in the 12000 range) of the 691 that may have shipped to the British military at the end of and as part of the 2nd contract.
 
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notenglishmake...and glad of it too i bet :)
nice piece of history. thanks for the shots, the revolvers of the first and second world wars are a new found interest of mine .
i have a colt n.s.455 and a 2nd mod h.e.455 from the great war .neat stuff, learning about proofs and different wartime contracts while holding a piece of that history in your hand.
i was hoping to see the II stamp denoting the mkII on a 1st model .
 
If I understand it correctly, you won't find a II on a 1st model because it denotes the Second model or second pattern revolver, or ".455 HE 2nd Model" in S&W vernacular.
 
I would say "modified" they where changed to make them more functional for as specific purpose (target shooting) I tend to say the S&W's with the cutaway trigger guards are "butchered" but that is just me. I do like the modified target guns. Thanks for sharing and please shoot them and let us know how they do.
 
neat old target guns. sure would like to have seen the shooting master with the king rib.
 
An important part to bring out here is that almost all guns were originally built to be used. In many cases, their usefulness could be augmented by some sort of modification. If every gun that was made were kept pristine and in a safe, there would be no novelty to finding a new condition (read "collectible") gun and more importantly no one would get any utility value out of any of them. In part at least, the value of the collectible is its rarity, and the value of the shooter is its utility. Add to that the special interest of the shooter grade gun and you have two distinct categories of "good" guns. Is one better or worse than the other? Not in my view! :cool:

Froggie

PS In case you hadn't noticed though, I tend to be a fan of shooter grade guns, since my interest is about the performance of the gun's designed duties. I can sincerely respect those who want to have their own museum, but I'll just visit there, not try to buy in! ;)
 
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delta-419 said:
A lot of work and gunsmith skill went into those guns at a time when the guns probably sold for $20 each. I like them, remember mass produced military arms were not collectables 60 years ago. They were cheap and everywhere, there were no computer websites and vast markets for such items as today. You worked with what came into the shop and the parts available. Old gunsmiths never threw anything away for fear that it can be used in a different way or "modified". Nice guns, I would have bought them too.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Well done modifications for their day. The competency of the machinist is remarkable for having done complex math AND executing it in order to accomplish the barrel rib.

My argument in favor of these one-offs is all about the geometry. For example, the barrel's incremental length of taper, and formulas for the barrel radius, the barrel diameter, the circumference (perimeter) of the barrel, the area of the barrel, the chord, arc and the arc length of throughout the barrel's length, sector and the area of the sector.

It is far easier to affix a Bomar or Aristocrat to a bull or slab side barrel... rather than produce and execute a finely crafted hand made product.


Sent Using Tapatalk
 
I have to call them cool.
So, my take is 'Modified'.

True, they don't fit their slots any more in a full-wall N frame display, but it doesn't mean they aren't cool old guns. :D

The hammers were cut for two possible reasons. One or both may apply.
To make a more positive hook for fast cocking.
To lighten the hammer and decrease lock time.
 
Thanx to Jim (Hondo44) for the detailed info on the "extra" 455 Triple Locks. The father of a late friend of mine served in the Canadian Army during the "Great War" & was able to keep his S&W 455 Triple Lock. (I remember my friend telling me that his dad had been wounded & recuperated in England where he met a nurse who became his wife. The only time he used the revolver was to put down some horses or mules that had been wounded by artillery fire.)

My friend showed it to me many years ago & I wrote to Roy Jinks about it because the s/n was above the .455 Triple Lock serial range listed in the Neal & Jinks book. (I think this was during the 1980s.)

Roy's letter explained about the several hundred .455 Triple Locks being assembled from leftover parts after the 2d model HE had gone into production. My friend's gun was in nice shape & I was able to clean it for him. He had a few old .455 rounds & I think I got a box of Fiocchi ammo for him. I gave him the S&W factory letter--didn't think to make a copy for myself.

Those guns are a neat part of history & it's been interesting to see that someone thought enough of one to modify it for target shooting, so thanx also to Bob (Red9) for sharing.
 
Hondo44 said:
Definitely classic examples of a bygone era. The difference between butchered and modified IMO is workmanship! Which puts these two in modified category.
Click to expand...

delta-419 said:
A lot of work and gunsmith skill went into those guns at a time when the guns probably sold for $20 each. I like them, remember mass produced military arms were not collectables 60 years ago. They were cheap and everywhere, there were no computer websites and vast markets for such items as today. You worked with what came into the shop and the parts available. Old gunsmiths never threw anything away for fear that it can be used in a different way or "modified". Nice guns, I would have bought them too.
Click to expand...

Rex Goliath said:
Agreed. Well done modifications for their day. The competency of the machinist is remarkable for having done complex math AND executing it in order to accomplish the barrel rib.

My argument in favor of these one-offs is all about the geometry. For example, the barrel's incremental length of taper, and formulas for the barrel radius, the barrel diameter, the circumference (perimeter) of the barrel, the area of the barrel, the chord, arc and the arc length of throughout the barrel's length, sector and the area of the sector.

It is far easier to affix a Bomar or Aristocrat to a bull or slab side barrel... rather than produce and execute a finely crafted hand made product.


Sent Using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Modified most definitely. These folks hit the nail on the head. "Bubba" never touched these guns!
 
For some reasson, the 455 ammo was hard to come by. That is why so many revolvers in that cal were converted to the 45 ACP/AR. It is a shame but what good would a gun be if you cant get ammo? The prices on the 455s were always low for that reason. To try and sell them, they were modified.

The two revolvers look good to me. Custom guns will always be out there. Someone will want the "Perfect Setup". I have built a number of them myself. So, it is a bit late to worry about it. I would like to have either of them.
 
"For some reasson, the 455 ammo was hard to come by. That is why so many revolvers in that cal were converted to the 45 ACP/AR. It is a shame but what good would a gun be if you cant get ammo? The prices on the 455s were always low for that reason. To try and sell them, they were modified."

Except for our neighbors along the Canadian border, .455, a British commonwealth just wasn't a common round to be had.
 
Nice ol revolvers.....We must remember,

back in the day it was common to see these revolvers customized to suit the end user.

Just some purty nice post-war work......


.
 
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