Modify a carry pistol? Yes or No?

[Repli-can't]

All
Just looking for opinions on who thinks it is a good - or bad - idea to modify a concealed carry gun and why. Possible legal issues? Should you pay to have an professional do the work? Etc.

I couldn't find an existing thread but if there is already one direct me.

Thanks.
Repli-can't

 

[Mike McLellan]

If you never have to use it, there will never be an issue. If you do use it, there will be a ton of legal issues. The hardest to defend against are modifications that make a gun easier to shoot than the manufacturer intended. The term "hair trigger" sounds awful in a packed court room. Even something as simple as a trigger shoe can be artfully spun by a clever attorney into a weapon of mass destruction. Other than after-market grips, most departments forbid any modifications to issue weapons.

 

[kisportolt]

What do you consider modify? change the sights, trigger job? or something more in depth?

 

[Arik]

Modify how? Adding night sights is modifying

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[Jyezahn]

I think it's up to the individual. Me, I changed out my trigger and ground some areas that were contributing to "gritty" trigger pull. Now it's not gritty, and has a very clean break. I've removed the bluing from my barrel, ejector, takedown lever, and slide release. I've changed out my grip, grip tool magazine plates, and mag release with stippled ones. I don't think modification is a bad idea. I don't even think having a light trigger pull is a bad idea. If you're cutting springs, etc, sure, have a professional do it, but if you're just swapping parts, there is no need to pay for that to be done. All of this is just IMHO.

I think any legal issues you have would boil down to whether or not it was a justified shooting. Not how easy it is to pull the trigger. As much as the prosecuting attorney would like to spin it, that's what it would be about.

 

[Repli-can't]

Mainly sights and a trigger job. Night sights help me a lot and even though Smith worked on the trigger on my Shield it is still awfully stiff to me so... I installed the Apex and it is MUCH better but now I'm getting cold feet about carrying it. Go figure

 

[VMaxSplat]

There aren't going to be many folks with actual experience in this area to give you advice.

My thoughts are that you should be able to explain why such enhancements were done to create a safer weapon. Be ready to testify that mods were done out of a sense of responsibility. For example, the average jury member could probably be made to see how the modifications lessen the chance of errant shots, etc.

As for who does the work, it would probably be easier to convince a jury of your responsible actions if a professional did the work and you have documentation to prove it. The average Bubba modifying his own weapon doesn't sound to good...

If you are ever forced to shoot someone in self defense (God forbid) the subject of gun mods probably won't even be an issue if its a lawful, clean shoot. If you happen to live in some leftest cesspool area of the nation, all bets are off regardless of the lawfulness of your actions if the gun is modified.

 

[lawdog45]

I have been involved with the criminal justice system in Texas for years. I have never come across negative repercussions for gun modifications in all that time. The bottom line is use deadly force as a last resort and only if your life or someone else's is at risk, or if your home is being invaded. You are more likely to get a thank you from the local police as long as it's a justified shooting. I recall one case where a citizen was on his way to or from a range and came upon a police officer in a very bad situation, he used his handgun to save the officer. The local PD gave him a case of ammunition. This was in pre CPW License days in Texas.

 

[Coaltminer]

Not me. I carry either a 9c or 581, both stock, with factory ammo. Liability is a lesser concern than reliability. Just my thoughts.

 

[Florida J Frame]

Google Massad Ayoob for some interesting reading on this subject. He is also a member here and may chime in.

 

[Jyezahn]

Not me. I carry either a 9c or 581, both stock, with factory ammo. Liability is a lesser concern than reliability. Just my thoughts.

Exactly, I'd rather have a reliable firearm that I am comfortable with a know that I've made it the way that I prefer, than to be dead. Courts be damned.

 

[Sebago Son]

This is my daily carry gun.

It is heavily modified, but only in the most inoccuous ways.

908 Frame
910 Slide
Mepro Sights
Hogue Stocks
Many stock plastic parts replaced with metal.

These modifications make the gun more reliable, better balanced and easier to shoot. But the trigger is stock.

(Leather by Lefty "Oldflatfoot" Lewis of Bell Charter Oak Custom Holsters)

 

[VaRecon]

It is a gun, not something you should carry unless you are unprepared to defend your right to use, god forbid you should ever have to pull the trigger in defense.
It is a tool, used to suit the needs of it's handler and should be as efficient at this task as possible.
If the time comes, to where you need to use your firearm the situation should require that only one party will see a courtroom anyway.
I don't advocate chopping barrels, modifying guns for bump fire or select fire or trying to illegally silence it but everything else is legal and can be useful.
At least none of my forms said I can't improve my property, within legal confines of course.

 

[Smitty357]

I have been involved with the criminal justice system in Texas for years. I have never come across negative repercussions for gun modifications in all that time. The bottom line is use deadly force as a last resort and only if your life or someone else's is at risk, or if your home is being invaded. You are more likely to get a thank you from the local police as long as it's a justified shooting. I recall one case where a citizen was on his way to or from a range and came upon a police officer in a very bad situation, he used his handgun to save the officer. The local PD gave him a case of ammunition. This was in pre CPW License days in Texas.

TEXAS was the key word.

 

[Old cop]

My EDC is a J frame and the only mod I make is to add a grip adapter or maybe change the grips altogether. Aside from that I carry/shoot 'em the way they come from the factory.

 

[Smitty357]

Louisiana is too much of a screwed up state to risk moddying a carry pistol. For instance......Burglar broke into someones house awhile back. In the process, he somehow managed to drop the tv on his foot and broke his foot. Guy sewed the homeowner and he won the damn lawsuit. How the hell do you win a lawsuit when u broke into the persons house any damn ways?.

The answer is LOUISIANA!!!!!!!!!!

 

[robkarrob]

If you intend to shoot someone, any modifications to a gun would not be cause any criminal charges. The word is intent. You intended to shoot that person and you carried out your intent and shot them. The shooting circumstances would determine whether criminal charges would be issued, not the modifications to the gun.

If you accidentally fired your modified gun, then those modifications could be cause for criminal action. Charges from careless use of a weapon, to accidential death (negligent homicide) could be charged. Of course you can count on being sued in all circumstances of injury or death..

All of my carry guns are modified for better trigger action, grip, and sighting. These modifications allow me to control and shoot the gun more accurately. I practice often with my modified carry guns, so I am familiar with the trigger, recoil, and sight recovery. Did I mention practice also helps me to hit what I'm aiming at.

Bob

 

[Florida J Frame]

Robkarrob,
Are you an attorney?

 

[4barrel]

NO XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

 

[WR Moore]

Depends upon what mods you're talking about. Changing sights or grips/stocks to make the weapon easier for you to shoot accurately are easily defensable. Those who suggest that mods be done by a pro are correct (OK, you don't need a pro to change stocks!). I'll also point out that S&W has a custom shop that does very good work and carries factory warranty.

Where one starts down a slippery slope is in reducing trigger pulls. If a pro reduces the trigger pull weight and stays within factory specification, this is also denfensable as it improves your ability to hit your target. If the trigger pull is less than factory specification or if you have removed safety devices, then you're engaging in behavior that can possibly be used to call your judgement into question. After all, you're potentially asking a jury to believe that your decision to use lethal force was that of a reasonable and prudent individual. In the eyes of non gun owners, who will make up the jury (and possibly quite a few gun owners, who won't be on the jury), trigger pulls less than factory spec and removed safety devices are decidedly not reasonable and prudent.

I have exactly one box stock handgun (M&P9), it flat didn't need any alteration from the way the factory made it. It's the one I've been using the past six years.

This subject has been beat beyond death on this forum and others. I recall a thread on the old Gun Zone forum that ran something like 19 pages. Take the earlier suggestion to search Massad Ayoob and/or modified guns/liability.

 

[crofoot629]

"Series 70" with a low of 3.5lbs trigger was the most liberal gun I was allowed to carry as a duty gun or off duty as a Deputy Sheriff in Jackson County. I qualifed many times with such a pistol.

I doubt the county you live in gives their coppers such a luxery.
Anyway I always think that if it was good enough for the chief LE enforcement agency in the county I was on solid ground. You really can't ask for more than a 1911 in condition one with 3.5lbs trigger.

Random thoughts that may or may not apply to you.

I however wouldn't worry about an Apex trigger. But you can see where my bar was set.

Emory

 

[snubbyfan]

It depends on an individuals requirments. I carry a 442 and I've done a trigger job/spring change, grip change and added a Laserlyte laser. My neuropathy causes weakness in my right hand and the different grips along with a lighter smoother trigger makes it possible for me to shoot it with either hand.

 

[mg357]

When i have enough money to buy my model 60 i am going to have the hammer spur removed by my gunsmith. So that i can draw it without the hammer snagging on clothing.

That is only modification i will have done to my carry gun, I considered also having an action job done to it but after reading through this thread i am not going to have the action job done just the hammer spur taken off.

 

[LimaCharlie]

The only modifications to my carry guns are different grips and night sights were added to one that came without them. I also carry only factory ammunition. I would rather not have to justify modifications or reload data if i ever had to go to court over a shooting. It is part of my KISS outlook.

 

[rraisley]

I think robkarrob said it well. As far as a lighted trigger pull is concerned, if you modded it or had it lighted, and it went off accidentally during handling, the heck yes, you are going to be in trouble. If you've shot it at someone, you didn't shoot them any more or less because of the light trigger (this assumes you actually intended to fire), so it shouldn't make much difference; it's the circumstances of the shooting that matter.

Now, adding a higher capacity magazine, and emptying same into an individual, would/should be frowned upon.

 

[Repli-can't]

Thanks to everyone for the great feedback!
Obviously no sane person is looking to shoot anyone but a little "belt and suspenders" are a plus. I for one would rather run away and get help from the police if possible vs. shooting anyone but you just never know if that will be possible. I live in Georgia so not too worried plus I would never modify past grips, sights and a smoother trigger to help with accuracy. Plus - as robkarrob said - as much practice time as I can afford!
Thanks again!

 

[SMMAssociates]

To channel Mas Ayoob, you should never remove a manufacturer-supplied safety device.... OTOH, he's generally defending LEO's over issues like this, and the agencies, presuming they or the Officer's union, are willing to stand behind them, have deeper pockets and are generally more likely to get sued anyway.

Just IMHO, if it's a good shooting from a Criminal standpoint, there's likely not going to be a problem no matter what you do. 'Course, there are Prosecutors and Judges out there who will crucify you for using a box-stock 10mm because they think it's too powerful....

Where, I think, you run a risk, is the likely Civil suit that may attach to a shooting, whether it's justified or not. These can be a lottery win for the BG, and/or his/her lawyers and/or heirs. It's quite possible that their lawyers will try to paint you as every kind of evil imaginable, regardless of the nature of the weapon anyway, but changes might make that worse.

Overall, I don't see much hazard other than the safety devices or a very light trigger.

Reminds me of a friend who was called as an expert witness. BG claimed that he couldn't have killed somebody because his gun had a broken firing pin. She borrowed a pencil from the bailiff, and sent it across the room.... Guilty....

(I think Mas is mad at me. He was complaining about problems getting guns through airport security some time back, and I suggested that he change his name. Ooops.... Good guy, though - he's worked with another buddy of mine over the years. Hope to meet him someday.)

Regards,

 

[blujax01]

Modify how? Adding night sights is modifying

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Right. As is filling in the logos with gold paint. Or adding "tactical" grips.

Having read some arcane gun laws (color "A" is okay, color "B" is not) I have come to the conclusion that if they're going to try prosecution due to a trigger shoe, night sights or whatever, it doesn't matter whether the gun was modded or not.

I live in Ohio and I'm with the "as long as the shoot is justified, no problem" side of this discussion.

 

[MP1SG]

The same clever atty that can turn your modifications against you. I am sure there are a few clever atty's that can defend you. Also if its a clean justifed shoot, then modifications may not even come into play.

 

[bp231986]

Have never changed any of my weapons. That may change when i get my AR but as far as my pistols go i have done zero changes to them. Havent even changed the "100 pound trigger" in my sigma. I might add steel sights to my glock but thats it.