Modify a carry pistol? Yes or No?

[crofoot629]

"Series 70" with a low of 3.5lbs trigger was the most liberal gun I was allowed to carry as a duty gun or off duty as a Deputy Sheriff in Jackson County. I qualifed many times with such a pistol.

I doubt the county you live in gives their coppers such a luxery.
Anyway I always think that if it was good enough for the chief LE enforcement agency in the county I was on solid ground. You really can't ask for more than a 1911 in condition one with 3.5lbs trigger.

Random thoughts that may or may not apply to you.

I however wouldn't worry about an Apex trigger. But you can see where my bar was set.

Emory

 

[snubbyfan]

It depends on an individuals requirments. I carry a 442 and I've done a trigger job/spring change, grip change and added a Laserlyte laser. My neuropathy causes weakness in my right hand and the different grips along with a lighter smoother trigger makes it possible for me to shoot it with either hand.

 

[mg357]

When i have enough money to buy my model 60 i am going to have the hammer spur removed by my gunsmith. So that i can draw it without the hammer snagging on clothing.

That is only modification i will have done to my carry gun, I considered also having an action job done to it but after reading through this thread i am not going to have the action job done just the hammer spur taken off.

 

[LimaCharlie]

The only modifications to my carry guns are different grips and night sights were added to one that came without them. I also carry only factory ammunition. I would rather not have to justify modifications or reload data if i ever had to go to court over a shooting. It is part of my KISS outlook.

 

[rraisley]

I think robkarrob said it well. As far as a lighted trigger pull is concerned, if you modded it or had it lighted, and it went off accidentally during handling, the heck yes, you are going to be in trouble. If you've shot it at someone, you didn't shoot them any more or less because of the light trigger (this assumes you actually intended to fire), so it shouldn't make much difference; it's the circumstances of the shooting that matter.

Now, adding a higher capacity magazine, and emptying same into an individual, would/should be frowned upon.

 

[Repli-can't]

Thanks to everyone for the great feedback!
Obviously no sane person is looking to shoot anyone but a little "belt and suspenders" are a plus. I for one would rather run away and get help from the police if possible vs. shooting anyone but you just never know if that will be possible. I live in Georgia so not too worried plus I would never modify past grips, sights and a smoother trigger to help with accuracy. Plus - as robkarrob said - as much practice time as I can afford!
Thanks again!

 

[SMMAssociates]

To channel Mas Ayoob, you should never remove a manufacturer-supplied safety device.... OTOH, he's generally defending LEO's over issues like this, and the agencies, presuming they or the Officer's union, are willing to stand behind them, have deeper pockets and are generally more likely to get sued anyway.

Just IMHO, if it's a good shooting from a Criminal standpoint, there's likely not going to be a problem no matter what you do. 'Course, there are Prosecutors and Judges out there who will crucify you for using a box-stock 10mm because they think it's too powerful....

Where, I think, you run a risk, is the likely Civil suit that may attach to a shooting, whether it's justified or not. These can be a lottery win for the BG, and/or his/her lawyers and/or heirs. It's quite possible that their lawyers will try to paint you as every kind of evil imaginable, regardless of the nature of the weapon anyway, but changes might make that worse.

Overall, I don't see much hazard other than the safety devices or a very light trigger.

Reminds me of a friend who was called as an expert witness. BG claimed that he couldn't have killed somebody because his gun had a broken firing pin. She borrowed a pencil from the bailiff, and sent it across the room.... Guilty....

(I think Mas is mad at me. He was complaining about problems getting guns through airport security some time back, and I suggested that he change his name. Ooops.... Good guy, though - he's worked with another buddy of mine over the years. Hope to meet him someday.)

Regards,

 

[blujax01]

Modify how? Adding night sights is modifying

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

Right. As is filling in the logos with gold paint. Or adding "tactical" grips.

Having read some arcane gun laws (color "A" is okay, color "B" is not) I have come to the conclusion that if they're going to try prosecution due to a trigger shoe, night sights or whatever, it doesn't matter whether the gun was modded or not.

I live in Ohio and I'm with the "as long as the shoot is justified, no problem" side of this discussion.

 

[MP1SG]

The same clever atty that can turn your modifications against you. I am sure there are a few clever atty's that can defend you. Also if its a clean justifed shoot, then modifications may not even come into play.

 

[bp231986]

Have never changed any of my weapons. That may change when i get my AR but as far as my pistols go i have done zero changes to them. Havent even changed the "100 pound trigger" in my sigma. I might add steel sights to my glock but thats it.

 

[C4IGrant]

All
Just looking for opinions on who thinks it is a good - or bad - idea to modify a concealed carry gun and why. Possible legal issues? Should you pay to have an professional do the work? Etc.

I couldn't find an existing thread but if there is already one direct me.

Thanks.
Repli-can't

No worries. If you don't know what you are doing, have someone that does do the work.


C4

 

[WC145]

My duty gun is an FNP45 Tactical, aside from the addition of a Trijicon red dot sight it is as it came out of the box because it is 100% reliable and shoots very, very well for me. It may get some trigger work down the road, we'll see, but for now it's about a perfect duty gun.

My off duty guns (and most of my other handguns) are all modified/customized to some degree, all the mechanical mods make the guns safer, more reliable, and easier to shoot accurately, and the cosmetic mods are just personal preference. I have yet to have an issue with any dept I've worked for and my guns are inspected by the red hats each time we qualify, as long as they are safe they are good to go, there's never been a question or issue over any modifications.

Should I ever get into a gunfight I intend to win and I want the odds as much in my favor as possible, thats why I carry the guns I shoot best and trust to work, some are modified, some aren't. If I end up in court we'll see what happens, at least I'll be there to defend myself.

 

[jeffhughes]

The hardest to defend against are modifications that make a gun easier to shoot than the manufacturer intended. The term "hair trigger" sounds awful in a packed court room. Even something as simple as a trigger shoe can be artfully spun by a clever attorney into a weapon of mass destruction.

That may be true in the context of a ND that results in injury or death, but if the shoot is good and you are legally carrying a legal gun, trigger pull will not be an issue.(that advise is worth exactly what I am charging).

You should contact the gun friendly lawyer you have lined up already. Anyone who carries should have a pre existing relationship with an attorney who successfully defends armed citizens.

 

[walkin' trails]

Changing out grips and sights should not be an issue as even some federal agencies allow those modifications to duty issued/authorized handguns. I don't think that aftermarket recoil springs/guide rods/ recoil reducers would make any kind of ripple. Trigger modifications that reduce trigger pull weights seem to be the issues that will get someone in trouble, especially if the shooter or his/her attorney cannot reasonably articulate why the modification was performed and why it did not have an adverse effect on an otherwise justifiable use of deadly force. I don't know that you'd have any problems if a qualified armorer smooth and polish the mating surfaces in the action (removing burrs, etc) simply to smooth out the trigger, but modifications that create a "hair trigger" should be avoided for a self defense pistol in this day and age. Not sure that some of those modifications over the years were even all that smart back when one could get away with it. There was a time when law enforcement training recommended prepping the trigger as soon as the pistol was out of the holster. That was when DA revolvers were the rule and not the exception (And there was a run of Colt Troopers with 20 lb DA pulls). I still hear it and read it from time to time from trainers here and there. Being used to a heavier trigger pull and then switching to a handgun with a light trigger while under stress can lead to a premature discharge if you are prepping the trigger during presentation. Even going from a standard Glock or S&W M&P trigger pull to something lighter can be a problem. As others have suggested, Google Massad Ayoob's publications on light triggers and court cases involving use of handguns for self defense.

 

[Sebago Son]

Should I ever get into a gunfight I intend to win and I want the odds as much in my favor as possible, thats why I carry the guns I shoot best and trust to work, some are modified, some aren't. If I end up in court we'll see what happens, at least I'll be there to defend myself.

Well Said Neighbor!

 

[cbr6864]

I have seen this posted again and again but you can have a 1lb or a 20lb trigger and it wont matter unless it is an accidental shooting...example...gun falls to ground fires and hits bystander. As long as the use of force was justified why would it matter how much force was required to pull the trigger.

Id like to see a modern case were use of force was 100% justified but shooter was still charged based only on trigger weight/modification.

 

[robkarrob]

Accidental discharge is the question. With a bone stock gun, you will be liable, as somehow during handling of the gun it discharged. Depending on the circumstances you could face criminal charges, but for injury or death you would certainly face civil charges. The civil attorney suing you may also go after the gun manufacturer (deep pockets).

With modifications to a gun, the first question would be "could those modifications have made the gun less safe than the stock gun? Was the cause of the discharge related to any of the modifications?" If the answer is yes, or could be yes, to either of those questions, then you could criminally face some type of negligent charges (you did not intend it to happen). If you are sued in a civil court, the modifications will be used to to convince the jury to award higher damages, as the gun was "not safe and was more likely to discharge". With modifications to the gun, the gun manufacturer would most likely not be included in the lawsuit.

The above is for accidental discharge. If you shoot someone with intent (you thought about it, took action, and completed your intent), then any modifications would not matter. It is like someone said, if you had a trigger that was so light it would fire if a fly landed on it, it still would not matter. It was not an accidental discharge. You had intent (thought about shooting the person, even for only a second). You took action (you aimed the gun and pulled the trigger). You completed your intent (the gun fired and the bullet hit your target). In this situation, depending on the circumstances, the charges could be nothing (a self defense situation) all the way up to fist degree murder (you planned it and carried it out).

Even if this shooting was determined to be an obvious SD situation, and no criminal charges are filed, you still will likely be sued by the victim, or the victim's family. You could be totally in the right by defending yourself or family, and you will still be sued. Most people are not aware of the costs of defending themselves in a "good" shooting. As we all know, in our country you can sue for almost anything. The costs for defending yourself falls upon yourself, with little chance of recovering those costs.

Bob

 

[cbr6864]

You can be sued over anything these days dont let that stop you from defending yourself.

 

[Storm40]

The Department I work for will not allow any modifications whatsoever. Over the years they have upgraded grips and sights and have changed what is the approved ammo but we can not do anything to them. NY is an anti gun state and if I deviate from what they approve my instructors have made it clear I am on my own. Coming from this type of constraint I will not carry a modified handgun. If I modify it will be for range use or local competition.

 

[OpsMgr]

I have TFO sights, Talon grips and Apex DCAEK mods to my Shield 9mm. For me, all of these mods make the pistola easier to shoot accurately.

Lately, I've considered re-installing the factory sear, sear spring and trigger return spring - The full Apex trigger mod is just a little too light for my EDC purposes. YMMV...