MP 2.0 stock sight picture

[Trailryder50]

Just shot my 2.0 9mm compact for the first time. Put about 150 rds downrange, shooting from a rest at several different yardages to check the guns sight alignment and accuracy, it's shooting low. Also to the left by about an inch, which I can fix with sight adjustment, but.............

Instead of the POA/POI(top of the sight centered in the target) sight picture I'm used to, this MP 2.0 seems to need to use the "center of the front sights dot for target center.

Is that everyone elses experience too? I never liked that particular sight picture.

If a particular gun/stock sight combo shoots using "white dot centered on target" sight picture, does that mean any aftermarket sights will utilize the same?

No way to change that to POA/POI?

 

[presspics]

You can install a lower front sight to get the 6 O'clock hold that you like. I prefer the sight to be right on the bullet impact point...To each his own.

 

[Trailryder50]

How are sights measured to know what stock is and how to determine what height front sight to get? When looking at new aftermarket sights, it looks like you just pick sights for your particular gun in a drop down menu.

No mention of whether their stock height or what.

 

[bsmiley]

The height of the front sight would depend on the rear sight? So different brands of sights might vary in height as long as they are engineered to align together?

 

[OKFC05]

How are sights measured to know what stock is and how to determine what height front sight to get? When looking at new aftermarket sights, it looks like you just pick sights for your particular gun in a drop down menu.

No mention of whether their stock height or what.

Take a look at the sight help on Dawson Precision Site. They make different height sights, have instructions on how to pick them, and you can call for personal help.

 

[Smakmauz]

With handgun sights, the POA/POI picture you describe will only align at whatever specific distance the sights on that gun are zeroed to at the factory with the stock parts. On the full sized guns (and likely the compact) I believe they use a .180" tall front sight and a .245" tall rear so holding the gun with the sights flat you would shoot low if you were shooting closer (or far enough away for the bullet to drop back past the zero crossing) than that sized setup was zeroed for. I'm not sure what distance S&W uses for zeroing their irons at the factory. I've heard that a fairly common standard is about 25ft for handgun sights but I've also heard others say anywhere from 10 to 25 yards. POI also can shift substantially depending on ammo, barrel length, twist rate etc... so unless you shoot the same ammo out of the same gun every time, getting too focused on sight elevation zero point on a pistol is a bit of a waste of time in my opinion. I usually just make sure my windage is dead on and then I figure out where I need to hold on the target for that particular gun and ammo at that particular time.

That said, if you want your setup zeroed at a closer distance, you can drop to a .170 or lower front and that will bring your POA/POI crossing to you at a closer distance.

Dawson precision is one of the only companies I know of that sells many different sizes to actually be able to customize like that. And like someone already said, they also have a good chart to show you how it works. They also have a mathematical formula listed to calculate the right sizes to what kind of zero distance you want but I would probably just call or email them.

Good luck.

 

[Wee Hooker]

My 9mm (1.0) M&Ps grouped under the front sight with my 124gr reloads. Going to a lighter &faster bullet would usually raise the groups. Most eventually got sight upgrades to get me 6 oclock hold groupings. Dawson is an excellent and inexpensive choice for getting there. Give them a call for free advise.

 

[CB3]

You are experiencing the difference between a target hold and a defensive hold.

In target shooting, you want to precisely align the sights and see the point of impact (PoA), so target shooters go to great lengths to shoot one ammo consistently and adjust height and width of the front sight and rear notch for a clear six o’clock hold. Target sighted guns come from the factory adjusted for approximately this sight picture at a certain distance—usually about 10 yards. Shooting much closer or farther will vary the PoI vs. the PoA.

In defensive shooting, the emphasis is speed over accuracy. Find the front sight, (center it in the rear), place the front sight ON (not under) the intended PoI, and press the trigger. Since the M&P series of pistols is considered a defensive line, factory sighting is for the front sight dot to COVER the PoI, usually at about 7 yards, which is actually a fairly long range for average defensive pistol use.

Trying to use a target sight hold on a pistol with defensive sights will cause the gun to shoot low—right where the front sight dot is pointing.

Shooting slightly left for a right handed shooter is often an adjustment of trigger control. Especially if you shoot using the pad of your trigger finger, you may actually be pushing the trigger and the gun slightly left, inconsistently with each shot. Try dry firing at home to see if the front sight drifts left as you break the shot. Concentrate on pulling the trigger straight to the rear, like imagining the front sight is mechanically connected to the trigger and you are pulling it through the rear sight notch without touching either side. If it is still a problem, try putting more of your trigger finger across the trigger. This can help with a straighter pull.

Most factory sights are very close to perfectly adjusted and we as shooters with a new gun may need to adapt a little.

 

[CBStuard]

You are experiencing the difference between a target hold and a defensive hold.

In target shooting, you want to precisely align the sights and see the point of impact (PoA), so target shooters go to great lengths to shoot one ammo consistently and adjust height and width of the front sight and rear notch for a clear six o’clock hold. Target sighted guns come from the factory adjusted for approximately this sight picture at a certain distance—usually about 10 yards. Shooting much closer or farther will vary the PoI vs. the PoA.

In defensive shooting, the emphasis is speed over accuracy. Find the front sight, (center it in the rear), place the front sight ON (not under) the intended PoI, and press the trigger. Since the M&P series of pistols is considered a defensive line, factory sighting is for the front sight dot to COVER the PoI, usually at about 7 yards, which is actually a fairly long range for average defensive pistol use.

Trying to use a target sight hold on a pistol with defensive sights will cause the gun to shoot low—right where the front sight dot is pointing.

Shooting slightly left for a right handed shooter is often an adjustment of trigger control. Especially if you shoot using the pad of your trigger finger, you may actually be pushing the trigger and the gun slightly left, inconsistently with each shot. Try dry firing at home to see if the front sight drifts left as you break the shot. Concentrate on pulling the trigger straight to the rear, like imagining the front sight is mechanically connected to the trigger and you are pulling it through the rear sight notch without touching either side. If it is still a problem, try putting more of your trigger finger across the trigger. This can help with a straighter pull.

Most factory sights are very close to perfectly adjusted and we as shooters with a new gun may need to adapt a little.

I understand what you are saying but have a real problem w/ the theory. There are many threads on this forum discussing being able to see what a bad guy is doing and how dot sights, lasers etc can be helpful w/ that. The idea that it is a good idea to cover up even more of the bad guy by having POI be under the front sight dot seems very counter productive to me. I ran into this stuff years ago w/ a certain model Beretta 92. The fix was a taller rear sight. The other problem I see here is, while the situations are vastly different, I don't see why I would want some of my pistols to require one sight picture while others require a different sight picture.

 

[Rastoff]

S&W M&P guns are set up to use this site picture:

• Top of the front sight aligned with the top of the rear sight.
• Front sight post centered in the rear sight notch.
• Top of the front sight in the middle of the intended target.

If done correctly, the top of the front sight would cut the hole from the bullet in half.

Since you were shooting from a rest, you have a better chance to get it right. The rest helps to remove the human error, but doesn't remove it completely.

Something does indeed seem off here. I'd want to see the gun in person before I say what I'd do to correct this issue.

Any chance you could post pics of the target(s)?

 

[CB3]

I understand what you are saying but have a real problem w/ the theory. There are many threads on this forum discussing being able to see what a bad guy is doing and how dot sights, lasers etc can be helpful w/ that. The idea that it is a good idea to cover up even more of the bad guy by having POI be under the front sight dot seems very counter productive to me. I ran into this stuff years ago w/ a certain model Beretta 92. The fix was a taller rear sight. The other problem I see here is, while the situations are vastly different, I don't see why I would want some of my pistols to require one sight picture while others require a different sight picture.

I don’t disagree with you on what constitutes a good sight picture. I was just explaining what I have been told and have seen to be generally the case. Unfortunately, the “modern school” of shooting taught and many still teach to cover the PoI with the front sight dot of the 3-dot system. I have purchased and shot a couple of dozen of my own 3-Dot setups. Most have the sight picture I described. I don’t like it. Like you I want more visibility of my target, not less.

For those of us who prefer a different sight picture or system, we spend more money to customize our guns. S&W sells to the masses who follow the generally accepted defensive shooting training.

Rastoff’s example above is correct in theory, but mass manufactured guns cannot be that precise, and I don’t think it takes into account the three dot system. The three dot system was developed for combat shooting, with the front dot intended to cover the PoI. Rastoff’s sight picture is what works for black sights generally, without the distraction of the dots that are lower than the tops of the sights. The three dot system is for close range speed, not precise accuracy like Rastoff’s example.

As you seem to acknowledge, you will have to spend extra money to get your preferred sighting system. I prefer a two-dot, front over rear night sight arrangement with PoI just above the front dot. That also happens to be where my red dot sight points when aligned with the irons. I spent $325 on my Shield and $600 on my preferred sighting system. I’m not upset with S&W for originally putting a 3-Dot system on it. I just accept it as what is.

 

[Trailryder50]

Well, I see this is one of those forums that logs you out if you take too long to gather your thoughts while making a post. Let me thy this again.

Thanks all for the good discussion and info.

I prefer and am used to using the sight picture posted by Rastoff. Maybe I have yet to shoot at a distance the guns sights are zeroed at. I'm limited to about 25 yds at the range I frequent. May have to see if I can shoot over at the rifle range to see where these sights zeroed.

I would rather have to hold over for different ranges other than zero range with that sight picture, as I have come to mentally segment the white dot into 1/4s if I need to holdover. Must be a mental throwback to using the reticle subtensions in my rifle scopes.

I understand the defensive shooting nature of the "covering target center with center of the dot" sight picture but I don't like it. Works fine for the close ranges one is most likely to have to use their weapon in a defensive situation, but further targets get obscured and I don't like that. The further the target, the more careful with your aim you need to be and I find that difficult using that picture.

The target in the picture was from about 20 yds. First shots are low and start to become on center as I gradually cover the target center with the dot. Shooting from a rest, being conscious of trigger pull, thumbing and shot anticipation.

The forum seems to have rotated the picture 90* CCW.

 

[Rastoff]

Based on what you're telling us, and what we know about the M&P and how the sights are intended to be used, I think your gun is shooting low. I would contact S&W.

You could also try shooting it at a closer range. Try 7 yards before you send it back.

 

[KELSW]

Not to be rude but if you want to shoot at long distant targets buy a target gun . I practice at 7 and 5 yards . My firearms provide ample accuracy as long as I do my part . I have 2 M&P 's a 2.0 and a Shield 9mm .

 

[Trailryder50]

Not to be rude but if you want to shoot at long distant targets buy a target gun . I practice at 7 and 5 yards . My firearms provide ample accuracy as long as I do my part . I have 2 M&P 's a 2.0 and a Shield 9mm .

No Problem. I'm not a snowflake. I just appreciate you folks responding.

From what I've been reading, S&W sets up their sights to zero at 20-25 yds. The gun shooting low at closer distances make sense.

I'm not going to spend too much time with the stock sights anyway, as I want night sights on it.

I'm thinking about giving the i Dot or Straight Eight type sights a try. I like the Ameriglo i Dot but there are a lot of reports on the florescent outer ring in the front sight breaking up and falling out.

The Trijicon front sight seems to be better quality but they don't have a rear Tritium single dot sight to pair with it.

 

[CB3]

I’m thinking about giving the i Dot or Straight Eight type sights a try. I like the Ameriglo i Dot but there are a lot of reports on the florescent outer ring in the front sight breaking up and falling out.

The Trijicon front sight seems to be better quality but they don't have a rear Tritium single dot sight to pair with it.

#4096L Heinie’s S&W M&P SHIELD LEDGE Straight Eight Night Sight - Heinie Specialty Products

This is the closest to shooting black sights in the day, with the dot-over-dot sight picture in the dark. My two sets both have PoI just on top of the front sight at 7 yards. I don’t like the white rings around Night Sights. It’s distracting in the day, and it makes the front sight wider, covering more of the target. I like a narrow front sight blade with some good light on either side when aligned in the rear notch. That’s what this sight gives.

I also like the ledge feature on the front of the rear sight. It shows these people know what they are doing in designing a sight. You do pay for it though.

I am waiting for a set for my FS. Sorry about the back order situation. They have told me they are upgrading the sights. How I don’t know.

Sight Alignment - Heinie Specialty Products

 

[Trailryder50]

I need to clear something up. Seems most of the sight vendors have not upgraded the fit guides for their sights to include newer guns that have come to market, like the MP2.0.

So tell me, the slide on the MP(ver.1.0) and 2.0 are the same dovetail wise? Slides just a little different length and different sight radius?

When I see sights listed for the MP of a specific caliber, can I safely assume they're compatible with the 2.0 of the same caliber?

Those listed for the MP, configured with which ever sight picture type, will fit the 2.0 and utilize the same sight picture type?

 

[STRATOKERBEROS]

Can someone explain about the MP and their barrel lock up? i saw a vid online about this where the barrel tilts back before the bullet has a chance to leave the barrel? How true is this about MP's? Could the OP question have anything to do with this? (Im very new to SW and the MP).

 

[Amp]

I have a 2.0 compact waiting for me.

 

[CB3]

When I see sights listed for the MP of a specific caliber, can I safely assume they're compatible with the 2.0 of the same caliber?

Those listed for the MP, configured with which ever sight picture type, will fit the 2.0 and utilize the same sight picture type?

Yes, I believe so. There is nothing to warrant a dove tail change.