tocohillsguy
Member
Last time I shot my N frame, I noticed I was missing high. Is the sight off or is it the muzzle flip? In other words does muzzle flip cause you to miss high or is the bullet gone long before the flip occurs?
Muzzle Flip
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Spotteddog
Member
What ammo were you shooting, and out of what N frame?
What ammo is the sight currently adjusted for?
What distance from the target?
What size of bullseye on the target?
What ammo is the sight currently adjusted for?
What distance from the target?
What size of bullseye on the target?
Crazy K38
Member
it was either the sights or you more likely than not, but could VERY eadily be the ammo as well,have someone else shoot the pistol such as an officer or range officer and see what happens
Amici
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While recoil begins lifting the barrel when the bullet starts moving, the bullet has exited the barrel before most of the muzzle jump has occurred. My guesses are:
1. Your sights are set too low for the load; or
2. You are flinching.
Have someone else shoot your gun and see where their POI is.
OP
tocohillsguy
Member
If you are hitting too high, there's little chance it's from flinching. I have never seen a person flinch up. They always anticipate the recoil and shove forward on the gun, causing hits low, and usually to one side.
Things to check
1- Have someone else shoot the gun, as already mentioned
2- Have you tried adjusting the sights (if you have that option)
3- Check your grip. This is what I'd guess is your problem. A too relaxed grip will allow the gun to rise much higher during recoil than a proper firm, but not too tight grip. I have shown this to students many times over.
Even though the bullet is out of the barrel relatively quickly, it most definately affects the bullets point of impact. Even more so, is the velocity of the bullet as it leaves the barrel.
Here is a prime example. I have a F/A 83 in .475 Linebaugh. Using a CPBC 370 grain bullet at 950 FPS it will hit approx. 5" high at 25 yards when aiming at the bullseye, while that same bullet at 1500 FPS fired at the same target, on the same day, and at the same aiming point, will hit appr. 5" low at the same distance. The reason is simple, the higher velocity load leaves the barrel before recoil and muzzle rise can affect it much, while the other load is in the bore long enough to be very much affected. Remember we are talking about milliseconds here too.
Things to check
1- Have someone else shoot the gun, as already mentioned
2- Have you tried adjusting the sights (if you have that option)
3- Check your grip. This is what I'd guess is your problem. A too relaxed grip will allow the gun to rise much higher during recoil than a proper firm, but not too tight grip. I have shown this to students many times over.
Even though the bullet is out of the barrel relatively quickly, it most definately affects the bullets point of impact. Even more so, is the velocity of the bullet as it leaves the barrel.
Here is a prime example. I have a F/A 83 in .475 Linebaugh. Using a CPBC 370 grain bullet at 950 FPS it will hit approx. 5" high at 25 yards when aiming at the bullseye, while that same bullet at 1500 FPS fired at the same target, on the same day, and at the same aiming point, will hit appr. 5" low at the same distance. The reason is simple, the higher velocity load leaves the barrel before recoil and muzzle rise can affect it much, while the other load is in the bore long enough to be very much affected. Remember we are talking about milliseconds here too.
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Actually, if you are holding the gun still before the shot and following through correctly, slow and heavy go high whie hot and light go low. Has to do with dwell time in the barrel.
Sounds like your gun may be sighted for different ammo (or you have an operator problem).
You must have posted this while I was typing. If that was the load you were using, and in that gun, I'd say that you either had too loose a grip, or the sights are simply way off.
I will say this. I went and looked at your thumbnail pic. The rear sight is adjusted way up in it's notch. I'd bet the cost of a box of ammo, that, that is your problem right there, with the ammo you were using.
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Sportsterguy
Member
If you are hitting too high, there's little chance it's from flinching. I have never seen a person flinch up. They always anticipate the recoil and shove forward on the gun, causing hits low, and sually to one side.
Things to check
1- Have someone else shoot the gun, as already mentioned
2- Have you tried adjusting the sights (if you have that option)
3- Check your grip. This is what I'd guess is your problem. A too relxed grip will allow the gun to rise much higher during recoil than a proper firm, but not too tight grip. I have shown this to students many times over.
Even though the bullet is out of the barrel relatively quickly, it most definately affects the bullets point of impact. Even more so, is the velocity of the bullet as it leaves the barrel.
Here is a prime example. I have a F/A 83 in .475 Linebaugh. Using a CPBC 370 grain bullet at 950 FPS it will hit approx. 5" high at 25 yards when aiming at the bullseye, while that same bullet at 1500 FPS fired at the same target, on the same day, and at the same aiming point, will hit appr. 5" low at the same distance. The reason is simple, the higher velocity load leaves the barrel before recoil and muzzle rise can affect it much, while the other load is in the bore long enough to be very much affected. Remember we are talking about milliseconds here too.
Great advice!
OP
tocohillsguy
Member
If you are hitting too high, there's little chance it's from flinching. I have never seen a person flinch up. They always anticipate the recoil and shove forward on the gun, causing hits low, and usually to one side.
Things to check
1- Have someone else shoot the gun, as already mentioned
2- Have you tried adjusting the sights (if you have that option)
3- Check your grip. This is what I'd guess is your problem. A too relaxed grip will allow the gun to rise much higher during recoil than a proper firm, but not too tight grip. I have shown this to students many times over.
Even though the bullet is out of the barrel relatively quickly, it most definately affects the bullets point of impact. Even more so, is the velocity of the bullet as it leaves the barrel.
Here is a prime example. I have a F/A 83 in .475 Linebaugh. Using a CPBC 370 grain bullet at 950 FPS it will hit approx. 5" high at 25 yards when aiming at the bullseye, while that same bullet at 1500 FPS fired at the same target, on the same day, and at the same aiming point, will hit appr. 5" low at the same distance. The reason is simple, the higher velocity load leaves the barrel before recoil and muzzle rise can affect it much, while the other load is in the bore long enough to be very much affected. Remember we are talking about milliseconds here too.
Thank you for the advice. I will definitely check my grip, although I was more accurate with the 686 and I would think my grip wasn't significantly different between the two guns. I'm left handed. As a general matter, with my pistols, I've been trying to loosen my left hand grip and use my right hand to grip harder. For me this technique seems more awkward with the revolvers.
Spotteddog
Member
OKF and the rest are your North star.
(BTW: 1/2 lug is lighter than the full lug barrel so will move higher)
(BTW: 1/2 lug is lighter than the full lug barrel so will move higher)
OP
tocohillsguy
Member
You must have posted this while I was typing. If that was the load you were using, and in that gun, I'd say that you either had too loose a grip, or the sights are simply way off.
I will say this. I went and looked at your thumbnail pic. The rear sight is adjusted way up in it's notch. I'd bet the cost of a box of ammo, that, that is your problem right there, with the ammo you were using.
Yes, but wouldn't a high rear sight cause the shot to hit lower?
Everything else being equal on a revolver shooting high - you either have to raise the front sight or lower the rear sight - sometimes you might have to do both. You're using logic, which doesn't apply here, as when you raise the rear sight your front sight has to come up in order to make your sight picture, which raises the barrel resulting in a high bullet strike.
7P's is correct-
A simple rule to follow when sighting any gun-
Move the rear sight in the direction that you wish to move point of impact.
Move the front sight in the opposite direction that you wish to move the point of impact.
If you have ever shot a bow, then you have already experienced that last part.
OP
tocohillsguy
Member
Many thanks to all. I'm going to lower the rear sight and see if that helps. It's definitely cranked up a bit.
bountyhunter
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Every handgun you fire rotates upward at the instant of ignition. The bullet leaves the barrel at a point of the arc of rotation. That's why heavier bullets hit higher: they accelerate more slowly and take longer to get out of the barrel, and they have more mass which causes more recoil effect.
The muzzle rotation is proportional to actual recoil energy and the distance the bore axis is above the wrist. The higher the bore axis, the more leverage it has on the wrist so it increases PERCEIVED recoil. It doesn't increase actual recoil, it increases it's effect. That's why raising your grip up on the gun reduces felt recoil.
+1
I would change your last statement to read -"that's why a higher grip reduces muzzle flip". It actually directs the recoil straight back into your hand, which depending on what you are shooting, can cause recoil to feel heavier, even though muzzle rise is less.
bountyhunter
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You can't get your hand high enough on the gun to get the bore axis going straight back through the wrist pivot point. But, raising your hand on the grip reduces the distance of leverage the bore axis has above the wrist pivot point so it will flip less, and it will feel like there is less recoil because the twisting force on the wrist is less.
I am in agreement with you, but what I said is correct. The higher the grip, the more the recoil is driven straight back. It simply a matter of physics.
A good way to experience this for yourself is to shoot a powerful single action like the F/A 83 in .454/.475. I can hold my hand in a normal postition on the gripframe on my .475, and it'll roll up fairly well, but recoil feels less against my palm. I can also grip it slightly higher and there is a marked difference in muzzle rise. It rolls much less, but your palm will let you know that your hand is higher on the grip in a hurry!
A good way to experience this for yourself is to shoot a powerful single action like the F/A 83 in .454/.475. I can hold my hand in a normal postition on the gripframe on my .475, and it'll roll up fairly well, but recoil feels less against my palm. I can also grip it slightly higher and there is a marked difference in muzzle rise. It rolls much less, but your palm will let you know that your hand is higher on the grip in a hurry!
Spotteddog
Member
Easiest way to remember sight movements,
F- Fronts
O- Opposite
R- Rears
S- (the) Same
F- Fronts
O- Opposite
R- Rears
S- (the) Same
