I can see a stop sign out my living room window.
Nobody stops. NOBODY!
Are they arguing or ignoring?
Is S&W arguing with standards or ignoring them?
My brand new 686 plus. Only the new Marlins offer the same level of disappointment.
- Thread starter Invisible Hand
- Start date
I can see a stop sign out my living room window.
Nobody stops. NOBODY!
Are they arguing or ignoring?
Is S&W arguing with standards or ignoring them?
Edmo
US Veteran
To the OP, I'm sorry you are having issues with your revolver. You are correct in your assertion that your problem highlights a bigger concern than the crown of an individual handgun.
I too have personally experienced the slipping quality coming out of Springfield. My last new S&W revolver required four trips back and two replacement barrels to make it right. To S&W's credit, they kept sending me shipping labels until the gun was fixed. However, it left me unimpressed enough with the brand's current level of quality to suspend any further purchases until things improve...
Good luck with your 686. As others have mentioned, a competent local gunsmith will be able to recrown your revolver's barrel.
Unfortunately, S&W didn't take the ten minutes required to fix the issue while they had your handgun. This would have resulted in a happy customer recounting the story of how S&W takes care of problems. Instead, they have a disgruntled customer and we have this post.
Edmo
I too have personally experienced the slipping quality coming out of Springfield. My last new S&W revolver required four trips back and two replacement barrels to make it right. To S&W's credit, they kept sending me shipping labels until the gun was fixed. However, it left me unimpressed enough with the brand's current level of quality to suspend any further purchases until things improve...
Good luck with your 686. As others have mentioned, a competent local gunsmith will be able to recrown your revolver's barrel.
Unfortunately, S&W didn't take the ten minutes required to fix the issue while they had your handgun. This would have resulted in a happy customer recounting the story of how S&W takes care of problems. Instead, they have a disgruntled customer and we have this post.
Edmo
I retired as a Quality Control Mgr. after 26 yrs. You bought a blemished handgun, sent it back to be upgraded to an excellent handgun. S&W done what you asked, BUT, missed something. In the mean time S&W is doing other work for ? thousand's of customers? You get back in the loop again, a VP talks to you and gives you an answer, Hundreds maybe thousands more get in the loop. You try to back door the system and get an employee written up because YOU ARE NOT satisfied. Brother some times you get the bear and sometimes the bear gets you. Live with it.
Nemo288
Member
I say again the crown countersink was bored off axis to the bore.
We have seen examples in here where that has happened to the barrel throat (forcing cone) which is a more serious error.
Unfortunately, only you can now decide what you want to do about it given S&W's current move to more relaxed standards.
Any decent gunsmith that is a master machinist will be able to touch that up and make it look right in a jiffy.
I guess S&W doesn't have any of those left.
And if it will make you feel better, send the bill to them.
Don't hold your breath though.
Theoretically that defect might throw the POI off from what it would have been.
Predicting accuracy though is a hazy business at best.
This thread has been an interesting probe into the psychology of revolver owners .. so thank you!
These are the only 2 full width S&W barrels I have out at the moment.
One is button rifling the other is ECM (and is full of lead from firing #8 shot).
We have seen examples in here where that has happened to the barrel throat (forcing cone) which is a more serious error.
Unfortunately, only you can now decide what you want to do about it given S&W's current move to more relaxed standards.
Any decent gunsmith that is a master machinist will be able to touch that up and make it look right in a jiffy.
I guess S&W doesn't have any of those left.
And if it will make you feel better, send the bill to them.
Don't hold your breath though.
Theoretically that defect might throw the POI off from what it would have been.
Predicting accuracy though is a hazy business at best.
This thread has been an interesting probe into the psychology of revolver owners .. so thank you!
These are the only 2 full width S&W barrels I have out at the moment.
One is button rifling the other is ECM (and is full of lead from firing #8 shot).
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classic bob
Member
Sounded familiar!
I thought this op's post sounded familiar. I checked his previous post about a 629 he was also dissatisfied with. I'm reminded of a friend of mine who was never happy with ANY firearm he bought. It didn't matter is it was new or used, if he couldn't find a problem with it AFTER he bought it, he'd try to create one. He became a nightmare to all lgs in our area. It all just sounded familiar!
I thought this op's post sounded familiar. I checked his previous post about a 629 he was also dissatisfied with. I'm reminded of a friend of mine who was never happy with ANY firearm he bought. It didn't matter is it was new or used, if he couldn't find a problem with it AFTER he bought it, he'd try to create one. He became a nightmare to all lgs in our area. It all just sounded familiar!
iPac
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I think I brought up this same logic before and don't believe it was well received here. It is 100% true though. Since then I have quite trying, because too many people obviously enjoy buying these 'quality' newer guns and just don't want to hear it. So now my opinion is everyone can enjoy whatever guns they want if it makes them happy. I am perfectly fine with it. The important thing is, I know what makes me happy, and what makes me happy is buying metal artwork of days long gone. Also, one of the reasons I come on here is to read all the current issues that get posted up as it amuses me. So what would I do if it stopped.
To the OP, good luck with your gun. A professional smith should be able to fix it, but that's not the point. You should not have to pay money out of pocket to fix a factory defect. All of you saying just deal, wait until your next fine firearm comes looking like that and I bet your opinion changes quick.
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OP
Invisible Hand
Member
I have 29 firearms. 27 of which I bought new. 3 have been sent back, my 686, and my 629, and my Kel-Tec Sub 2000.
OP
Invisible Hand
Member
Thanks buddy! If I keep the gun I will send it off for a re-crown, bead blast finish, and action job.
This thread is hilarious.
The op has three options.
1. Find someone who can shoot it accurately and see if there is an actual problem.
or,
2. Send the gun to a private gunsmith and have the crown cut to his/her acceptable standards.
or,
3. Sell the gun and do an better inspection before laying down the cash/credit card on the next one.
I forgot a fourth,
4. Throw all your magnifying glasses, high intensity lamps, and microscopes in the trash and go shooting. Been there, done that on one return. Ten minutes after it was returned from the factory I forgot what the issue was in the first place.
The op has three options.
1. Find someone who can shoot it accurately and see if there is an actual problem.
or,
2. Send the gun to a private gunsmith and have the crown cut to his/her acceptable standards.
or,
3. Sell the gun and do an better inspection before laying down the cash/credit card on the next one.
I forgot a fourth,
4. Throw all your magnifying glasses, high intensity lamps, and microscopes in the trash and go shooting. Been there, done that on one return. Ten minutes after it was returned from the factory I forgot what the issue was in the first place.
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sasu
Member
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My experience with crowns is that even a small nick or irregularity wreaks havoc on accuracy. An asymmetrical or damaged crown means that at the last moment the bullet exits the barrel the gases give an uneven push and destabilize the bullet. The smallest nick in the crown can destroy accuracy.
If I had a crown as shown in the photos here, I would have it corrected immediately. I would not waste ammo even trying it out.
So yes, you can count this as a vote for the OP and his worries.
If I had a crown as shown in the photos here, I would have it corrected immediately. I would not waste ammo even trying it out.
So yes, you can count this as a vote for the OP and his worries.
OlongJohnson
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A 640 Pro recently went back to the online seller from an FFL near here due to a crown that looked similar to the OP's and due to a yoke that severely interfered with the frame and wouldn't close without being deflected 10-15 thousandths. Fortunately, the online seller is a good one and made it no hassle. And the buyer was smart enough to call them and arrange the return prior to putting a drop of ink on the 4473.
OP
Invisible Hand
Member
That is ridiculous. I'm glad the Army just kicked them out of the bid for their next sidearm. There is no excuse for these guns getting past their QC to began with. And yes, I made a mistake by accepting the transfer.
I can't believe this is STILL being discussed. Have we accomplished anything?
OP
Invisible Hand
Member
I'm good with letting this thread die. It has more than served its purpose. Thank you to those who contributed.
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stykshooter
Member
I was curious so I went through some of the guns in my safe. I have purchased four new Smith & Wessons since the first of the year. I just examined the crown on each of them. I confess, even though I was a S & W armorer for over 20 years, I never thought to examine the crown on my barrels until I read this thread.
All of the crowns look perfect, except the one on my new 686 plus 3". Although the photo may not show it all that well, the crown on that barrel is at least as bad as the one that the OP posted photos of. The left side of the barrel in the photo has hardly any crown to it while the right side is visibly deeper. That is tough to photograph by the way.
I was originally disappointed in the accuracy of this revolver as it wouldn't shoot any of my 158 grain or 180 grains loads into a group you could cover with a hat at 25 yards. Then I tried some 125 grain loads. This revolver exhibits stellar accuracy with 125 grain .357 loads. The target on the left in the photo is six rounds of Remington 125 grain Golden Saber factory loads from a rest at 25 yards. Yeah, I went out and stocked up on that Load!!
It would be interesting to see how it affected accuracy if I would have the crown trued up. But I doubt that I will bother as I really like how this revolver shoots at present. It may not shoot as well afterward.
All of the crowns look perfect, except the one on my new 686 plus 3". Although the photo may not show it all that well, the crown on that barrel is at least as bad as the one that the OP posted photos of. The left side of the barrel in the photo has hardly any crown to it while the right side is visibly deeper. That is tough to photograph by the way.
I was originally disappointed in the accuracy of this revolver as it wouldn't shoot any of my 158 grain or 180 grains loads into a group you could cover with a hat at 25 yards. Then I tried some 125 grain loads. This revolver exhibits stellar accuracy with 125 grain .357 loads. The target on the left in the photo is six rounds of Remington 125 grain Golden Saber factory loads from a rest at 25 yards. Yeah, I went out and stocked up on that Load!!
It would be interesting to see how it affected accuracy if I would have the crown trued up. But I doubt that I will bother as I really like how this revolver shoots at present. It may not shoot as well afterward.
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The OP has a valid point of view.
It's third-rate work on their part.
The really aggravating part is S&W could have just fixed this in minutes. It's a no-brainer repair to cut a squared muzzle, regardless of profile. That it's on a stainless gun and thus requires no finish work just underscores the point.
You're a paying customer with a legitimate gripe. They could have fixed it right away, probably in less time than squabbling about it at the factory. Instead, they dug in their heels and said "tough luck". They chose to win an argument rather than serve a customer.
Either fix it or sell it, in my opinion. You'll always have a bad taste in your mouth over this if you just leave it.
If you sell it, I wonder how many of the repliers who said it doesn't matter would be willing to knowingly buy it?
Oh yeah, one more thing: Bud's does this sort of thing all the time, especially on their used stuff!
Someone recommended sticking with regular stocking dealers. Good point! Sadly, it's becoming a tougher option all the time!
Best Wishes for a satisfactory resolution,
Jim
It's third-rate work on their part.
The really aggravating part is S&W could have just fixed this in minutes. It's a no-brainer repair to cut a squared muzzle, regardless of profile. That it's on a stainless gun and thus requires no finish work just underscores the point.
You're a paying customer with a legitimate gripe. They could have fixed it right away, probably in less time than squabbling about it at the factory. Instead, they dug in their heels and said "tough luck". They chose to win an argument rather than serve a customer.
Either fix it or sell it, in my opinion. You'll always have a bad taste in your mouth over this if you just leave it.
If you sell it, I wonder how many of the repliers who said it doesn't matter would be willing to knowingly buy it?
Oh yeah, one more thing: Bud's does this sort of thing all the time, especially on their used stuff!
Someone recommended sticking with regular stocking dealers. Good point! Sadly, it's becoming a tougher option all the time!
Best Wishes for a satisfactory resolution,
Jim
sasu
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I have my eyes on the 629 Performance Center Hunter but having experienced my own and reading about others' problems with S&W quality inconsistencies I may switch this purchase to a Ruger instead as I do not want another dud. I will wait until I start hearing that S&W has fixed their quality check process. I have no way of personally checking a gun before purchase as I special order overseas and I have no way to return a gun for warranty repairs because guns are "too dangerous" to ship overseas by an individual.
EDIT: I made my choice and ordered a new Ruger Super Redhawk 44 Magnum. Ugly as h*ll but more probably mechanically sound.
EDIT: I made my choice and ordered a new Ruger Super Redhawk 44 Magnum. Ugly as h*ll but more probably mechanically sound.
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OLDSTER
Member
crown issue
Yes
It's the asymmetry that negatively affects accuracy. A few years ago I purchased a beat up old K38 with severe pitting at the muzzle. I machined the muzzle back even with the front of the sight to clean it up. I made sure it was machined perfectly smooth and perpendicular to the bore to avoid uneven combustion. The results are a muzzle with no "crown" at all, that will print with a target barrel at 10 yards. So, yes any concerns regarding poorly executed counter boring at the muzzle are well founded:
Yes
It's the asymmetry that negatively affects accuracy. A few years ago I purchased a beat up old K38 with severe pitting at the muzzle. I machined the muzzle back even with the front of the sight to clean it up. I made sure it was machined perfectly smooth and perpendicular to the bore to avoid uneven combustion. The results are a muzzle with no "crown" at all, that will print with a target barrel at 10 yards. So, yes any concerns regarding poorly executed counter boring at the muzzle are well founded:
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Texas629
Member
I was about to buy a new 686 at Bass Pro Shop last weekend until I read this thread and checked the pistol out, specifically the crown. I brought my head lamp, magnifier and some other tool with me and checked it out at the counter. Same issue with the crown as the OP posted. The store had another 686 sent to the store, it was worse than the first one and the crane wasn't square with the frame. The store manager said I could buy it and send it back to S&W to fix. Hmm, bought a used Ruger Redhawk .41 mag from a LGS that had no visible issues and shoots great and saved myself about $250 and a lot of aggravation I don't want. The 686 would have been the first S&W I have bought. I am cured of my new pistol blues.
magnumkdb44
Member
yep thats the new smith & wesson for ya. quality gone out the window
