My brand new 686 plus. Only the new Marlins offer the same level of disappointment.

[-db-]

I'm going to swim against the current and suggest that those with the "Yeah, but how does it shoot?" response, implying that if the gun shoots fine it's acceptable, aren't looking at the bigger picture in these cases.

That reply is akin to someone ordering a brand new car and upon arriving at the dealership to pick it up he notices the paint is full of scratches and when pointed out to the dealer, he replies, "Yeah, but it drives great, that's the important thing, so who cares?"

Now, of course no one here would accept that but some will throw that same line out at others when it comes to cosmetically-flawed guns, as if how well a gun shoots is the ONLY concern anyone should ever have.

An additional thought is let's say Invisible Hand's gun ends up shooting fine. But what about resale, something the How does it shoot? crowd never seems to consider? Any potential buyer who knows what he's doing is going to question an odd-looking crown and now the seller is burdened with trying to convince the buyer it's "no big deal, the gun shoots fine, trust me" (famous last words), an issue he wouldn't have to be dealing with had the manufacturer done better work, and possibly take a hit on what he ends up getting for the gun.

And then there's the issue that arises when one considers if they let this particular shoddiness pass, there's the wondering what else might be wrong with the gun and now you've got an owner (along with those potential future buyers mentioned earlier) full of doubt.

S&W, along with all other modern manufacturers, only get away with increasingly lower standards because the buying public allows it. It's a problem that will only get worse until enough people get fed up and use their purchasing power to put an end to the downward slide. I'll be damned if I ever purchase a brand new gun and accept the flaws we see many here share with us and I don't care how many think they're clever and ask, "Yeah, but how does it shoot?", trying to tell me I should be happy with sub-par work.

 

[PatriotX]

I haven't shot it yet, and haven't been shooting in over a year, so the likelihood of me being able to determine its accuracy is slim. I got the shipping notification today and should have it back early next week. Regardless of how accurate it is, it's sure as hell not as accurate as it would be with an even crown.

You have no way to determine accuracy without firing the gun.


I would echo the other poster above me, perhaps buying guns sight-unseen is not for you.

 

[PatriotX]

I'm going to swim against the current and suggest that those with the "Yeah, but how does it shoot?" response, implying that if the gun shoots fine it's acceptable, aren't looking at the bigger picture in these cases...

Nobody forced the OP at gunpoint to accept delivery of a substandard product. Cosmetic issues could and should have been noted before transfer, and refund issued. Bud's does this all the time.


Lamenting accuracy without actually firing the gun is a bit silly as well.

 

[-db-]

Nobody forced the OP at gunpoint to accept delivery of a substandard product. Cosmetic issues could and should have been noted before transfer, and refund issued. Bud's does this all the time.

True, but that's beside the point and negates nothing I've said.

Lamenting accuracy without actually firing the gun is a bit silly as well.

The OP says he doesn't shoot well enough to know if accuracy would be affected, so that's basically beside the point, also:

My shooting is not up to par with determining the accuracy of a gun.

 

[Invisible Hand]

I'm going to swim against the current and suggest that those with the "Yeah, but how does it shoot?" response, implying that if the gun shoots fine it's acceptable, aren't looking at the bigger picture in these cases.

That reply is akin to someone ordering a brand new car and upon arriving at the dealership to pick it up he notices the paint is full of scratches and when pointed out to the dealer, he replies, "Yeah, but it drives great, that's the important thing, so who cares?"

Now, of course no one here would accept that but some will throw that same line out at others when it comes to cosmetically-flawed guns, as if how well a gun shoots is the ONLY concern anyone should ever have.

An additional thought is let's say Invisible Hand's gun ends up shooting fine. But what about resale, something the How does it shoot? crowd never seems to consider? Any potential buyer who knows what he's doing is going to question an odd-looking crown and now the seller is burdened with trying to convince the buyer it's "no big deal, the gun shoots fine, trust me" (famous last words), an isue he wouldn't have to be dealing with had the manufacturer done better work, and possibly take a hit on what he ends up getting for the gun.

S&W, along with all other modern manufacturers, only get away with increasingly lower standards because the buying public allows it. It's a problem that will only get worse until enough people get fed up and use their purchasing power to put an end to the downward slide. I'll be damned if I ever purchase a brand new gun and accept the flaws we see many here share with us and I don't care how many think they're clever and ask, "Yeah, but how does it shoot?"

My thoughts exactly. I really appreciate your input.

 

[Invisible Hand]

Nobody forced the OP at gunpoint to accept delivery of a substandard product. Cosmetic issues could and should have been noted before transfer, and refund issued. Bud's does this all the time.


Lamenting accuracy without actually firing the gun is a bit silly as well.

You're right about accepting delivery. I noticed the poor trigger immediately but figured S&W would take care of it, so proceeded. I did not check the crown. That is on me.

However, the point remains that S&W is putting out a substandard product with no regard to quality control.

 

[PatriotX]

The OP says he doesn't shoot well enough to know if accuracy would be affected, so that's basically beside the point, also:

If there's no metric to determine accuracy, how can accuracy be a point of contention?


If a car is advertised to have 300 horses, one can't complain about being shorted without measuring performance or dyno numbers.


OP not proficient with gun? A Ransom Rest or similar should do the trick.

 

[-db-]

The real lesson here for you, Invisible Hand, is to fully inspect any future guns before you commit to the full purchase, as PatriotX stated. That's how we vote with our purchasing power. Refuse to accept anything less than what you expect a new gun to be.

 

[colt_saa]

I'm going to swim against the current and suggest that those with the "Yeah, but how does it shoot?" response, implying that if the gun shoots fine it's acceptable, aren't looking at the bigger picture in these cases.

That reply is akin to someone ordering a brand new car and upon arriving at the dealership to pick it up he notices the paint is full of scratches and when pointed out to the dealer, he replies, "Yeah, but it drives great, that's the important thing, so who cares?"

Now, of course no one here would accept that but some will throw that same line out at others when it comes to cosmetically-flawed guns, as if how well a gun shoots is the ONLY concern anyone should ever have.

An additional thought is let's say Invisible Hand's gun ends up shooting fine. But what about resale, something the How does it shoot? crowd never seems to consider? Any potential buyer who knows what he's doing is going to question an odd-looking crown and now the seller is burdened with trying to convince the buyer it's "no big deal, the gun shoots fine, trust me" (famous last words), an issue he wouldn't have to be dealing with had the manufacturer done better work, and possibly take a hit on what he ends up getting for the gun.

S&W, along with all other modern manufacturers, only get away with increasingly lower standards because the buying public allows it. It's a problem that will only get worse until enough people get fed up and use their purchasing power to put an end to the downward slide. I'll be damned if I ever purchase a brand new gun and accept the flaws we see many here share with us and I don't care how many think they're clever and ask, "Yeah, but how does it shoot?", trying to tell me I should be happy with sub-par work.

I totally disagree. It is nothing like buying a car

It is much more like buying a lawn mower or a chain saw or any mechanic's tool, taking it home and then complaining about the scratch in the paint.

 

[-db-]

If there's no metric to determine accuracy, how can accuracy be a point of contention?

I'm not arguing that accuracy is a point of contention. As I stated earlier, the gun may shoot perfectly well but it's still flawed cosmetically, which carries its own set of problems. That's what my argument is.

 

[-db-]

I totally disagree. It is nothing like buying a car

It is much more like buying a lawn mower or a chain saw or any mechanic's tool, taking it home and then complaining about the scratch in the paint.

Car, chain saw, mower, tool, what's the difference? Whatever the item happens to be is irrelevant, the point stands. When one buys a brand new quality item, any item, one doesn't expect it to have cosmetic flaws. That's what bargain bins and discount "scratch and dent" sales are for.

I find it hard to believe anyone wants to try to argue otherwise.

 

[Invisible Hand]

In regards to me seeing how well it shoots. I agree 100% with DB on this, and this is why I've spared the details. However, for those of you who require more:

I severely injured my dominant hand and wrist earlier this year and I just recently got to the point where I can shake someone's hand and open doors. I will not be able to shoot like I used to for a while, from both the injury, and lack of practice.

 

[Invisible Hand]

The real lesson here for you, Invisible Hand, is to fully inspect any future guns before you commit to the full purchase, as PatriotX stated. That's how we vote with our purchasing power. Refuse to accept anything less than what you expect a new gun to be.

Agreed. I will be pointing all future guns at my face and inspecting the crown prior to purchase.

 

[PatriotX]

You're right about accepting delivery. I noticed the poor trigger immediately...

[snip]

However, the point remains that S&W is putting out a substandard product with no regard to quality control.

You also mentioned several blemishes in the first post.

It's only been determined substandard from a cosmetic standpoint so far, as the gun has yet to be fired. You noticed these cosmetic issues, yet proceeded with transfer. At what point did the acceptable become substandard?

 

[Invisible Hand]

You also mentioned several blemishes in the first post.

It's only been determined substandard from a cosmetic standpoint so far, as the gun has yet to be fired. You noticed these cosmetic issues, yet proceeded with transfer. At what point did the acceptable become substandard?

It was never acceptable. I knew they would fix the finish as they have in the past, and they did. I also figured they would fix the horrible action, and they did. I didn't point the gun at my face and notice the crown. That is my fault, and would have been a deal breaker.

 

[PatriotX]

It was never acceptable. I knew they would fix the finish as they have in the past, and they did. I also figured they would fix the horrible action, and they did. I didn't point the gun at my face and notice the crown. That is my fault, and would have been a deal breaker.

Semantics.

It was acceptable enough to complete sale/transfer. You knew of several blemishes and a lousy trigger and took the gun home.

Knowing the faults, buying the gun, THEN complaining that the gun wasn't perfect is something of a disconnect for me.

 

[TAC]

I got it from Buds. It's brand new.

I'm really surprised by the response from S&W. Any local competent gunsmith should be able to clean that up quickly, for a nominal fee. It's really a simple fix. Awesome gun!

 

[Practical]

You walked out of the store with a gun which you KNOW had blemishes.

I have found that all products have factory 2nds or 3rds.

If you want a PERFECT S&W go to a stocking dealer who carries a lot of inventory and who keeps their show guns in good shape.

I have found the guns you buy there cost more, but are of top quality.

If you buy at a gun show or small shop or big box store you get the guns which are made on monday or friday, were built for a big order for a big box gun store OR were made from the parts bin and are sold NOT to stocking dealers but to the lower tier gun distributors

You are whining because you thought, I can get a bargain and then have S&W fix it.

It's like buy a 'new' car that has been test drove all through a northeast winter covered in salt and used by the staff as a shared car.

Sure it's new but it's got several thousand miles on it and the underbody is covered in salt.

I think you are the one at fault not S&W. You bought it.

 

[colt_saa]

Car, chain saw, mower, tool, what's the difference? Whatever the item happens to be is irrelevant, the point stands. When one buys a brand new quality item, any item, one doesn't expect it to have cosmetic flaws. That's what bargain bins and discount "scratch and dent" sales are for.

I find it hard to believe anyone wants to try to argue otherwise.

I also find it impossible to believe that any sportsman would be willing to give up a fine shooting firearm because they want it to be prettier.

If you were buying this piece for display I can understand not caring how it shot before you had parts changed and work done to enhance it's cosmetic appeal.

However if you are a shooter how can cosmetics, on the day you pick it up, possibly be more important than how it shoots?

And why on Earth would you take delivery of something that you thought was substandard in the hope that the manufacturer would change it to your liking? Why not simply keep your money in your pocket until you had one that you liked?

 

[Invisible Hand]

Semantics.

It was acceptable enough to complete sale/transfer. You knew of several blemishes and a lousy trigger and took the gun home.

Knowing the faults, buying the gun, THEN complaining that the gun wasn't perfect is something of a disconnect for me.

I'm complaining that S&W doesn't care enough to spend 15 min fixing it. I don't care so much about the gun as I do about how this reflects on the company. To me this is bigger than my gun. I'm not loosing any sleep over the $700. It is the complete lack of pride and concern for quality that bothers me. I love S&W firearms and always have, but it seems they don't care about the quality of their work any more.

 

[shocker]

I point the muzzle at my face frequently, because that's were my eyes are. Of course a gun has been cleared and the action open, magazine removed etc. Revolver with the cylinder swung out and empty chambers never shot nobody.

I agree that ECM rifling makes a muzzle appearance that takes getting used to but the barrels I have shoot extremely well, including cast.

 

[Invisible Hand]

You walked out of the store with a gun which you KNOW had blemishes.

I have found that all products have factory 2nds or 3rds.

If you want a PERFECT S&W go to a stocking dealer who carries a lot of inventory and who keeps their show guns in good shape.

I have found the guns you buy there cost more, but are of top quality.

If you buy at a gun show or small shop or big box store you get the guns which are made on monday or friday, were built for a big order for a big box gun store OR were made from the parts bin and are sold NOT to stocking dealers but to the lower tier gun distributors

You are whining because you thought, I can get a bargain and then have S&W fix it.

It's like buy a 'new' car that has been test drove all through a northeast winter covered in salt and used by the staff as a shared car.

Sure it's new but it's got several thousand miles on it and the underbody is covered in salt.

I think you are the one at fault not S&W. You bought it.

I couldn't find it locally, and looked for over half a year. Once again I'm not loosing sleep over $700. I'm upset that S&W has let their quality standards slip this low, and wanted to share this with others so they can make sure to inspect the hell out of their next purchase.

 

[-db-]

I also find it impossible to believe that any sportsman would be willing to give up a fine shooting firearm because they want it to be prettier.

If you were buying this piece for display I can understand not caring how it shot before you had parts changed and work done to enhance it's cosmetic appeal.

Well, the thing is we have no idea what any stranger's motive is when purchasing a gun. Perhaps he's a shooter, perhaps a collector, maybe a mix of both, possibly none of the above. I suspect there are as many different reasons people buy guns as there are people themselves.

However if you are a shooter how can cosmetics, on the day you pick it up, possibly be more important than how it shoots?

Again, we can't necessarily assume anyone's only a shooter. But let's say this guy is. I haven't argued that cosmetics are more important than function, only that cosmetics are indeed something to consider. After all, if function was all that mattered, we wouldn't be on this forum but instead be discussing all the Hi Points and other perfectly fine but less-refined shooters we all own instead of S&Ws.

And why on Earth would you take delivery of something that you thought was substandard in the hope that the manufacturer would change it to your liking? Why not simply keep your money in your pocket until you had one that you liked?

I have no idea why people do this. In this case, the OP states he overlooked the crown. People miss things, it happens. The guy said he realizes this was his big mistake. I think he gets it and we've got him sorted out now.

However, what I was objecting to is the implication, via the all-too-common "Yeah, but how does it shoot?" replies we see when any cosmetic issue is brought up here, that sub-par appearance is no big deal or is "just the way things are now" and thus somehow acceptable when it's not or that just because one guy views guns as mere tools where cosmetics are of little concern, everyone else should, too.

 

[wlc]

Many people buy guns and cars for more than basic function. There is such a thing as pride of ownership. That is one reason for buying more expensive products.

 

[buckyjames1]

Fan boys...

- If this were a Charter Arms, Taurus..or insert any other manufacturers name...You guys would be all about bashing em and saying "Shoulda bought a Smith"...

- Comments like "Well its your fault, you accepted the gun"...pretty disgusting. A page right out of the Used Car salesman handbook.

- How about we comment on shoddy workmanship of a product and manufacturer. I dont really care if a gun just shoots great, there is a thing called fit/finish and its also supposed to be included in the cost of an item. Obviously Smith and Wesson is overlooking this these days so lets acknowledge that a bit more and not bash people for bringing it up or disgustingly stating that its now the "Buyers Fault"

Fan boys...

 

[dwpmusic]

I didn't read every post in this thread but I just want to ask a question?? What, if anything, that we buy today reflects the quality and workmanship and pride that manufacturers use to exhibit? Just sayin'.

 

[Invisible Hand]

I didn't read every post in this thread but I just want to ask a question?? What, if anything, that we buy today reflects the quality and workmanship and pride that manufacturers use to exhibit? Just sayin'.

Benchmade knives, Snap-on wrenches, and Japanese cars to name a few. To your point though, very little does. However, I'll be damned if I don't do what I can to keep this from getting any worse. A large number of people in America are of the mindset that we need to keep manufacturing jobs here, and will buy American if they can. When American manufacturers don't give a **** about the quality of their products they loose their only advantage. My new Taiwan Spyderco knives are a hell of a lot nicer than my USA made ones.

 

[clang444]

Lot's to take away here:

1. The current S&W company is not the same S&W company of the past. It's had its ups and downs, let's hope quality is not down to stay.

2. Current manufacture guns go out the door if they are in spec or "good enough". It's like selling a shovel the S&W, not a new sports car.

3. It's best to inspect a gun in person before you buy it. Especially if you are discerning (or just plain picky).

4. If you buy over the internet, inspect it well before accepting it. If it is flawed - send it back. You are out some money, but buying over the internet is always a gamble.

The market will take care of the rest.

 

[Chuck24]

The rifles or the baseball team?

 

[Watchdog]

I can't imagine buying a gun or taking delivery of a gun...new or used...without thoroughly inspecting it.