My 'Ugly' American

[model3sw]

Check Hammer Type and Cylinder Lock Type per confidential source. Pages are from my library but are the research of Roy Double and Col Chas Pate 1971 research. Also, as I have been informed, barrel size not being recorded by the factory is not unusual. Front sight on early 1st models were German Silver then changed to steel with same finish as gun. Steel front sight on early 1st model barrels other than 8" are have been noted. After a certain serial number range steel front sight became the standard for economic reasons (steel cheaper than German silver).

you should have a #7, flat bottom trigger and a #13 cylinder stop mechanism.

 

[SchofieldKid]

Hey Kid, that screw is not buggered. It is a classic, original screw,
with the center drill accent.

Ah-Ha! I knew it was a rare-type original screw!

 

[jleiper]

Check Hammer Type and Cylinder Lock Type per confidential source. Pages are from my library but are the research of Roy Double and Col Chas Pate 1971 research. Also, as I have been informed, barrel size not being recorded by the factory is not unusual. Front sight on early 1st models were German Silver then changed to steel with same finish as gun. Steel front sight on early 1st model barrels other than 8" are have been noted. After a certain serial number range steel front sight became the standard for economic reasons (steel cheaper than German silver).

you should have a #7, flat bottom trigger and a #13 cylinder stop mechanism.

These are all changes requested by the Russian government. Since this American clearly is earlier than the Russian contracts it should only have early features.

Change 1->2, 7->8 and 13->14 occurred with the introduction of the 2nd Model Russian and the Second Russian contract. This change was made in the Commercial production at about commercial serial 19000. These commercial revolvers still had the square butt.

Change 3->4 (cylinder retainer) was introduced with the 1st Russian contracts and made it into Commercial production in the 5000 commercial serial range.

Change 11->12 (extractor gear teeth) was introduced with the 1st Model Russian contract and into commercial production around commercial serial 7200.

Change 9->10 occurred with the new frame introduced with the increased size trigger pin. This occurred at about serial 2500 in the first Russian contract - examples of the old style frame are know in the contract up to almost serial 5000. This change was introduced to commercial production at about commercial serial 8200. The front sight was changed to steel at the same time.

Change 5->6 (hammer latch) was introduced with the 1st Model Russian contract. This change made it into commercial production at about commercial serial 6500. The firing pin bushing was added at this same period.

Joe

 

[SchofieldKid]

Could you post a picture of the rear face of the frame where the hammer/firing pin comes out? This revolver should not have the steel insert in the frame.
Joe

No insert, just a light circular shadow where the cartridge face hit the recoil plate when fired.

 

[jleiper]

Thanks, as expected, confirming an early revolver. These, the No. 3s, were made of iron and the Russians requested the steel bushing.
Joe

 

[model3sw]

These are all changes requested by the Russian government. Since this American clearly is earlier than the Russian contracts it should only have early features.

Change 1->2, 7->8 and 13->14 occurred with the introduction of the 2nd Model Russian and the Second Russian contract. This change was made in the Commercial production at about commercial serial 19000. These commercial revolvers still had the square butt.

Change 3->4 (cylinder retainer) was introduced with the 1st Russian contracts and made it into Commercial production in the 5000 commercial serial range.

Change 11->12 (extractor gear teeth) was introduced with the 1st Model Russian contract and into commercial production around commercial serial 7200.

Change 9->10 occurred with the new frame introduced with the increased size trigger pin. This occurred at about serial 2500 in the first Russian contract - examples of the old style frame are know in the contract up to almost serial 5000. This change was introduced to commercial production at about commercial serial 8200. The front sight was changed to steel at the same time.

Change 5->6 (hammer latch) was introduced with the 1st Model Russian contract. This change made it into commercial production at about commercial serial 6500. The firing pin bushing was added at this same period.

Joe

Thanks, Joe. I should have prefaced my previous post stating it was a continuation of a side subject I had going with "SchofieldKid" (hereafter referred to as "the kid") who had asked ... "if one was so inclined to do so ... how one could distinguish the 1st and 2nd cylinder stop and hammer type" (to retain notes of types by serial number). These few, specific, changes were implemented long before the 1st Russian contract while I know you are correct on most others and likely correct on the rest.

The major focus of the questions is for Americans serial numbered up to appx SN 3000, which is before the Russian Contract pistols were manufactured and way before the overrun (not really overruns but that's another topic in and of itself) Russians produced that were transformed in to Americans.

I was asked (and further enlisted "the kid") to collect the new data obtained by examining original configuration of his 1st American specimen SN: 1824 ( BTW I recently purchased SN: 1707) .

Also, whenever confronted with data on any / all surviving American revolvers (by serial number) and the specific changes of the 1st (so called) transition in and around SN: 6000 - 7000 range, however, the major focus of the research is on the American 1st models up to SN: 3000, assuring that they are, in fact, 1st model Americans that are all too often confused by those of limited knowledge of Americans, with the very similar OOR over-runs. (not really over-runs but you know what I'm referring to).

 

[SchofieldKid]

So,.......I figured the only way to find out what was inside this old pistol was to remove the side plate and have a look. I removed the grips and attempted to loosen the mainspring screw(strain screw). No Go. Not having a screw removal vice, I removed the 3 sideplate screws without incident. Next, I full cocked the hammer and utilizing a piece of brass, wedged it between the spring and inside of the backstrap. I was then able to pivot the hammer stirrup up out of the mainspring 'claws' to relieve all spring pressure on the hammer. Not a recommended procedure but it worked with no harm done. Next step was tapping a brass punch against the inside edge of the side plate, carefully making sure it worked off evenly front to back. I had first tried tapping the frame with a larger piece of brass as is recommended, but had no success doing so. I then removed both trigger guard screws and the trigger return spring(rare 2-piece spring--Ha!) and bolt(cylinder stop) spring. While pushing the hand back inside the frame, I carefully removed the hammer assembly. Whew! So far, so good. At this point, I made the decision not to remove the 2 pins which the cylinder stop(front pin) and trigger(rear pin) pivot on. I felt I'd been quite lucky so far and decided not to tempt fate any further. Besides that, I didn't want to mar or disfigure the heads of the pins since the only pin punches I have of that small size are steel. So with that done, I started wiping the parts and inside of the frame down with an oiled rag and a bunch of Q-tips. I'll post some pics now and continue a little later with some close-ups of the parts.

 

[SchofieldKid]

After taking a number a pics of the inside parts and frame, I realized that the Q-tips I used left a lot of cotton fuzz and debris that wasn't noticeable until i looked at the pics. So, I re-cleaned as best I could and re-shot a bunch of pics, most of which came out better but certainly not perfect. I was very happy to see at least some amount of original case-color left on the hammer and upper part of the trigger and a lot of blue iniside the frame and sideplate. Well worth the effort so far to see that! The parts themselves seem to be a little dirty with varnished oil and a small amount of dirt, but in very good condition with only minor wear thruout. About that rare 2-piece trigger spring, well, it's just broken but it did still manage to function as designed. My guess is that there are probably many more of these 'rare' springs on other pistols of this era.

 

[SchofieldKid]

Since deciding not to remove the frame pins, I can't show a pic of the cylinder stop in it's entirety, but I have pics of both ends and bottom. The hand was easy enough to photograph, even though I didn't remove it from the hammer assembly. If I understand the information I was sent (thanks mdl3sw) then I believe the cyl. stop and hand are correct for this 1st model. I'll defer to the more experienced on the forum to confirm that though, as I am very far from being considered knowledgeable on this subject. No numbers or other markings were observed on any of the internal parts. I assume there were none? I plan to leave the old pistol apart for a few days in case I need to provide a better or additional pics of anything inside it. Thanks for the help and comments guys, it's just what I needed.

 

[jleiper]

Nice pictures! The cylinder stop and hammer are definitely early, but there is absolutely no way it would be the later type. As I said before, the trigger activated stop was introduced with the 2nd Model Russian in the Second Russian contract (contract of 15 Jan 1873). Your revolver was definitely produced before 1872.
The first Russian contract all have the older style hammer activated stop.
This change to the trigger activated stop was not added to the Commercial revolvers until sometime between serial 18634 and 19175.
Joe

 

[model3sw]

Since deciding not to remove the frame pins, I can't show a pic of the cylinder stop in it's entirety, but I have pics of both ends and bottom. The hand was easy enough to photograph, even though I didn't remove it from the hammer assembly. If I understand the information I was sent (thanks mdl3sw) then I believe the cyl. stop and hand are correct for this 1st model. I'll defer to the more experienced on the forum to confirm that though, as I am very far from being considered knowledgeable on this subject. No numbers or other markings were observed on any of the internal parts. I assume there were none? I plan to leave the old pistol apart for a few days in case I need to provide a better or additional pics of anything inside it. Thanks for the help and comments guys, it's just what I needed.

Great job, "Kid" !

I just got home with SN: 1707. The screws are so clean and the side plate fits so perfectly it appears near seamless. Being that as it is, I'm going to admire it for a day or two before I remove the side plate.

1707 had only 707 visible, the " 1 " being obscured by the flange of the lanyard stud.

1707 is a 6" barrel with steel front sight and the vent hole (vent holes were stopped at appx SN 1500). ALL the assembly numbers match. It's so nice I am tempted to run a few rounds through it tomorrow, having never fired an American before in my life.

Hoping the Historical letter shows shipped to a person (ANY PERSON but would prefer a known person) rather than to MW Robinson.

As you know, MW Robinson was S&W's largest dealer / supplier / exporter of that time.

The historical trail of many nice old Model 3's end at MW Robinson.

 

[SchofieldKid]

Nice pictures! The cylinder stop and hammer are definitely early, but there is absolutely no way it would be the later type. As I said before, the trigger activated stop was introduced with the 2nd Model Russian in the Second Russian contract (contract of 15 Jan 1873). Your revolver was definitely produced before 1872.
The first Russian contract all have the older style hammer activated stop.
This change to the trigger activated stop was not added to the Commercial revolvers until sometime between serial 18634 and 19175.
Joe

Thank you for your detailed information Joe. It really helps me understand the chronology of the earlier Model 3's. With only a few books and scant knowledge of the subject, I'm learning quite a lot on the forum here. Once I decided to see what I had inside, and got the pistol apart, I realized that I didn't know what to look for in terms of correctness. You've helped solve that and I'm very happy with what I found both inside the pistol and here on the forum! My mind is now at ease about the originality of this gun. I may need your help-expertise when I examine my 2nd model commerical Russian (You've been Warned! ). Thanks again.

 

[SchofieldKid]

Great job, "Kid" !

I just got home with SN: 1707. The screws are so clean and the side plate fits so perfectly it appears near seamless. Being that as it is, I'm going to admire it for a day or two before I remove the side plate.

1707 had only 707 visible, the " 1 " being obscured by the flange of the lanyard stud.

1707 is a 6" barrel with steel front sight and the vent hole (vent holes were stopped at appx SN 1500). ALL the assembly numbers match. It's so nice I am tempted to run a few rounds through it tomorrow, having never fired an American before in my life.

Hoping the Historical letter shows shipped to a person (ANY PERSON but would prefer a known person) rather than to MW Robinson.

As you know, MW Robinson was S&W's largest dealer / supplier / exporter of that time.

The historical trail of many nice old Model 3's end at MW Robinson.

Wow! THAT is a SCREAMER!!!!
Need more pics! Need more pics! Need more pics!
Just had a thought Sal, why don't we trade pistols so you won't have to worry about hurting the finish on 1707 if you shoot it? I'll even put mine back together for you! Congratulations indeed!

Did I mention--Need more pics! Need more pics! Need more....

 

[model3sw]

Since deciding not to remove the frame pins, I can't show a pic of the cylinder stop in it's entirety, but I have pics of both ends and bottom. The hand was easy enough to photograph, even though I didn't remove it from the hammer assembly. If I understand the information I was sent (thanks mdl3sw) then I believe the cyl. stop and hand are correct for this 1st model. I'll defer to the more experienced on the forum to confirm that though, as I am very far from being considered knowledgeable on this subject. No numbers or other markings were observed on any of the internal parts. I assume there were none? I plan to leave the old pistol apart for a few days in case I need to provide a better or additional pics of anything inside it. Thanks for the help and comments guys, it's just what I needed.

I like it. When you're tired of it, let me know.