Need advice - home defense - night

[federali]

Ambient Light

I would opt for a more comprehensive home defense plan with emphasis on tactics rather than firearm. While I like a dark bedroom, the rest of the house should have enough ambient light, either through night lights or very low voltage/wattage bulbs left on at strategic points so that you may identify a target without a flashlight. As others have said, the downside to a gun or hand carried light is that if the intruder possesses an ounce of tactical sense, he'll use your light to ambush you.

 

[BAM-BAM]

Here's my scenerio: Bad guy tries to enter home at night. Wife who is not overly gun proficient needs to to repel boarders.

I need advice and guidance.

Boiled it down for you..............^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I see someone else beat me to it.. but I'll say it again..... KISS

What Federali said.....................

"Tries to enter home"....... call 911.... before you spray and pray on some guy(s) outside your home.

Is your wife going to be engaging at more than a few feet?

Is she mentally prepared to shoot and kill someone?

4" model 10...... .38s.... doesn't get any more KISS

 

[crazyphil]

The best advice I can give you is to find and attend an NRA class that they
call BASICS OF PERSONAL PROTECTION IN THE HOME. If you can't find a
class in your area, at least order the manual from NRA (same name). It's
less than twenty bucks and a lot more valuable than all the gadgets and
gimmicks mentioned above. I taught this class, among others, before I
retired. Lots of common sense information. You know the saying, common
sense is not so common any more.
walnutred's post #20 is is one good example of common sense.

 

[Farmer17]

In commercial construction every single building is required to have battery backup emergency lights that come on when the power is shut off so people can see and exit a building. Walking around a pitch black house with a flashlight or weapon light would make it so easy for an intruder to see you before you see him. The commercial grade emergency lights are only about 60 bucks and they are very bright but you do need to run power to them. I don't think much of lasers at all and don't own any.

 

[BB57]

I'm pretty eclectic and common sense when it comes to tactics for night home defense, with a few a key concepts in mind.

1. The odds are that someone entering your house will be less well low light adapted than you are, and you will know the layout of your house while the intruder will not.

Consequently, you have an advantage that you'll lose when you start using a light, and yet way too many people want to turn on the lights or run around flashing their tactical flashlight to level the playing field to their own disadvantage.

A light is also very likely to draw fire if the intruder is armed and intends to shoot, so a brief activation via a momentary switch is your best bet. I'm also in agreement that having a really bright tactical light just because you can is a really bad idea. You are not going to "blind" an intruder, but too much light will further impair your night vision and is way more light than your dark adapted eyes need for target identification. 100-200 lumens is plenty, and if you choose wisely, you can find a light that offers a few levels of output that can be set separately from the momentary switch. In other words, you want a light with a momentary switch that can be set to turn on at a low level of brightness, around 100-200 lumens.

With that in mind, a light on a personal defense carbine isn't a bad idea, but it needs to be used very sparingly and only when you absolutely need to identify a target you are about to shoot. For example, you probably do not want to shoot your teenage daughter's boyfriend who came in the back door she left unlocked. Or maybe you do. Either way a light can allow you to properly identify the target before you shoot it.

2. I'm a big believer is shooting instinctively, with both eyes open looking over the weapon.

For example, way back in the day we were taught to fire at night with an M16A1, both eyes open looking over the carry handle. At social shooting distances it was plenty accurate.

In that regard, I'm in agreement that iron sights are sufficient - if you practice enough to get comfortable and confident with that approach.

3. I'm not a fan of short barrels in a home defense carbine.

For 9mm Luger purposes 8.3" is a sweet spot, losing only 125 fps or so compared to a 16" carbine barrel, and only being about twice as loud at 120 dB, compared to 117dB for the 16" barrel.

However, the downsides of the short barrel are potentially more muzzle flash, and much more importantly a greater potential for a user to get one or more fingers in front of the barrel when firing under extreme stress. There's never a good time to blow your own fingers off, but doing it while being shot at is worse than most.

Consequently I added a flash can and a free float tube to give a little more real estate to hold the weapon. The increase in weight is minimal, but length might be an issue depending on how you store it.

----

With all that said, I also like my personal defense carbine to be reasonably flexible, capable of engaging targets at both short and long range with no change in configuration.

Below is my PDW, a 9mm AR-15 with a light and a Burris 332.

The Burris 332 is a reflex sight so it has a reticle even if the unit is off or the batteries are dead, the batteries just illuminate the reticle. The retical is also a modified donut, and that combined with the low magnification means it's easy to use at short range with both eyes open and just looking at the target.

Your non dominant eye will clearly see the target and your dominant eye will impose the reticle on the target, even if it is magnified slightly, or slightly out of focus.

In bright light with the black reticle, or in the dark if the reticle is illuminated, you also get the same effect as a red dot sight for the same reasons the original Single Point occluded eye sight worked.

At the other extreme, the Burris 332 and the dots in the lower half of the reticle (see above) will also let me accurately engage people sized targets to 200 yards with the 9mm 115 gr XTPs I use in it, making it a very useful truck gun as well as a home defense weapon.

The light is mounted so that the momentary switch can be easily reached and activated by the thumb on the week hand as it grips the forend. The light itself has 4 separate power settings and the second setting works perfect for use at night. I also have a separate switch that can be used instead, and attached to the weapon, but I have not found it offers any real advantage. It's easier to remove the light during the day when I don't need it without the separate switch.

 

[ContinentalOp]

I don't know you or your wife, so I'm just going to base my opinion on what you've posted.

I think you're putting the cart before the horse.

First and foremost, what is your home defense plan? Have you taken a layered approach to your defensive measures, at least as best as you're able to? Exterior lighting, maybe with motion detectors? Landscaping that prevents hiding places for potential intruders? Sturdy, solid-core exterior doors with good quality deadbolt locks? Secured and locked windows? Alarm systems? Any dogs? Do you have a designated safe room, like a master bedroom, preferably with a solid-core door and a good deadbolt lock? Do you keep a fully-charged cell phone handy to call 911 if needed (there have been instances of home invaders cutting phone lines)? Do you practice (or at least plan to practice) home defense scenarios?

I don't expect you to answer these questions here as I consider specific details about one's home security to be personal information that shouldn't be publicly posted, but it will hopefully give you some things to think about and consider if you haven't already.

After that, you can address self defense tools. The first question to ask is how much your wife is willing to invest. Is she willing and able to use deadly force? If so, how much time and energy is she willing to invest in becoming competent, including not only physical training in how to use a firearm but also learning the laws about when and when not to use deadly force?

You said your wife is not overly gun proficient, but what does that mean, exactly? Has she had any training? Does she visit the range? If so, what kind of gun(s) does she shoot? What is she comfortable with? As mentioned above, how much is she will to invest in training?

Again, I don't know you or your wife, but I'm beginning to think keeping things as simple as possible is going to be the best approach, and to me that suggests a good double-action revolver loaded with .38 Special loads, like a S&W Model 10 or 64. It's simple to operate, simple to shoot, and simple to make safe. It requires some practice to maintain competence, but fortunately most self defense situations don't require bullseye precision. Depending on your home layout and who else might be living with you, it might be better to rely on ambient light in order to keep things simple, but a good handheld flashlight should still be available.

If a semi-auto is what she wants/prefers/feels comfortable with, then I'd suggest a standard DAO semi-auto pistol to keep things simple. A weapon-mounted light can be useful, but only if used for target verification, i.e., she can see the target but uses the light only to confirm a threat before firing. But that requires training and practice.

Now, if she is willing and able to practice enough with your PCC to develop and maintain competence, then that can be a viable tool, but the key word is practice. The more complex the gear, the more training and practice you have to do to be able to use it under stress. Hence my recommendation for a DA revolver.

FWIW, I keep a gun and a flashlight on my nightstand, and practice with them, but I also use a small LED night light outside my bedroom that provides enough ambient light to ID an intruder, aside from the fact that I live alone. I also do what I can to make it difficult for an intruder to get in that will also generate a lot of noise and will, hopefully, give me enough time to assess and take appropriate actions. But that's what works for me. So far, it's never been tested, and I hope I never have to find out how well it works. Whatever plan/tools you and your wife decide on, I hope you never have to find out, either.

Apologies for the novel, but I hope it'll be of at least some use to you.

And, as always, this is just my opinion.

 

[E46iosh]

Have a plan practice practice I always use a hand held flashlight one I can hit button and it come on and go off like a streamlight other hand is my model 10 revolver just point and shoot no safety's to deal with and if I need more fire power I can get to safe inside is my glocks and xds 9mm and 10mm and ar15

 

[JJEH]

Here's my scenerio: Bad guy tries to enter home at night. Wife who is not overly gun proficient needs to use Pistol Cartridge Carbine (Extar EP9, a PCC in 9mm, 8" barrel) to repel boarders.

I don't want to sound like the mood killer but here's my opinion;

If you are home then let her handle the 911 call.

If you are not home and she's all by herself then get her a nice 20ga youth shotgun, make it cruiser safe and have it on her bed side.

Leave an interior light on overnight that would give her an advantage over the intruder. If you don't have a light already then make it happen.

Perhaps a camera system would be a good investment too, with motion detection outside lighting. This way if she sees anything she can call 911 before grabbing the gun.

If she's not proficient I would never put her in the position of handling an unfamiliar weapon (you sound like it's the only choice) with an unfamiliar sight. Or worse, you make her use both hands while under a great amount of stress.

That's not going to work out well for you.

Make a plan and start taking defensive action on the outside now, this will be a deterrent for most.

 

[keith44spl]

I put one of those big dot nite sights on my wife's 20ga 870.


.

 

[scooter123]

First, a pistol caliber Carbine with an 8 inch barrel is a Short Barrel Rifle. Getting that particular Federal Permit is not a fact process. In addition that is a list that I really do not want to have my name on.

Second, LED light bulbs are very cheap to run, last longer when left on, and help you avoid a stubbed toe if you have to get up for some reason. So, make "leaving the light on" a habit, especially around the entries to your home.

As for laser gimmicks or red dot sights, they are actually a distraction. Find a local shotgun range and you and your wife spend some time shooting Trap. BTW, you can shoot trap with just about any inexpensive shotgun and even with a cylinder bore home defense shotgun. BTW, shooting with an 18 inch barrel with a cylinder can be done but does it make a bit more difficult to hit. However once you start hitting with good consistency you will both be excellent point shooters. After that you won't waste very valuable seconds looking for the sights, it will be a smooth single motion of mount, point, shoot. I suspect that you will also find hitting moving targets is a lot more fun that punching holes in a static piece of paper. Note, if you get a Remy 870 barrels are easy to find and inexpensive so adding a 28 inch Field barrel won't break the bank.

Yeah, I'm pointing you to a Shotgun. There is no finer weapon for Home Defense and claims a woman can't shoot one is 100% Bunk. The kick from a 2 3/4 inch load of #1 Buck is actually pretty mild and the result is 16 thirty caliber balls moving at about 1300 fps.

PS;, should have looked before leaping, I now realize that a Pistol Caliber Carbine is NOT a rifle like any other carbine in existence but but a pistol with an abbreviated stock that will be banned sooner or later because too many insist on using as a shoulder stock. While these types of pistols do make some sense for a disabled person for a healthy individual they imposed limitations on shooting flexibility that would be a real hazard in a self defense situation. In addition using the most viable method of holding one of these weapons in a defense situation puts that abbreviated stock on your shoulder that just invites prosecution for possessing a Short Barreled Rifle without the proper Federal permits. BTW, the ATF has already stated that using an arm brace on the sholder makes a pistol a SBR. My advice is if you are insistent on buying one of these gimmicks take the time and spend the money to get the proper Federal Permit for a Short Barreled Rifle. Then you can mount it on your shoulder without risk of prosecution and can build yourself a short barreled AR-15 which IMO is a much more useful firearm sometime in the future.

 

[delcrossv]

Agreed. A pistol caliber carbine does not seem like a good PDW for someone who is not proficient with firearms. I'd suggest the OP review that choice before worrying about lights, lasers etc.

 

[Valmet]

Just a light and good set of iron sights, man.

Sorry but a red dot sight and laser are nonsense for home defense. The light is important for proper target identification. The iron sights don't require batteries or any nonsense and you're not screwing around with a bunch of buttons for the stupid laser that is going to do nothing for you and your wife.

You want things SIMPLE AND RELIABLE in a close range defensive situation. No messing around with a bunch of controls. Turn on the light to make sure it's actually someone worth shooting, aim down the metal sights on the dam gun, and KILL THE INTRUDER.

Nothing fancy needed or desired when the adrenaline is blasting through your system at 3AM when the front door gets kicked in. Focus on getting the gun in action, ID'ing the threat, and shooting to save your life before a bunch of tacticool garbage. Spend the money on ammo and training!

IMHO- JayFarmer is right on the money with this info.

 

[thewittmp]

I have a similar issue with my wife.

I have read that if not proficient, a shooter will wait until they see the dot from the laser before shooting. In a fast moving scenario, this will cause delay.

I have a weapon light attached to both hers and mine and find that they have a built-in hot-spot in the center of the light pattern. This acts like an easy to see bulls-eye. Center that over your target and the bullet goes pretty close to center. Good enough for a center-mass shot.

 

[Shield 9 WV]

I've learned that a 200lumen light is plenty bright and even a 60lumen is great if used properly.

I've been researching lights thanks to the recommendations here. I previously thought that brighter was better like 1000 lumens or more and then found out exactly as you recommended, inside a small house all I would likely do is blind myself.

I've settled into 300 lumen as my top number and now I'm not ruling out less.

Right now at $90 the OLIGHT PL-MINI 2 valkyrie 600 Lumen Modular weaponlight is the leader in the club house. 600 lumens is more than I'd like but nothing is perfect for X price.I like it because it has a more focused beam in the center and it's a dedicated high quality gun build.

I'm still looking.

 

[Shield 9 WV]

Can you escape and call the cops? Are you trapped?

No escape and no cell service. This is a very small 2 bedroom house in the country, 30 miles from the sheriff's office in town.

The front and back doors face each other, probably 25 feet apart. My wife sleeps within 15 feet of each door.

There is a land line which can be accessed with a wireless handset but I don't think the range is very good. Once 911 is reached it would likely be the sheriff responding, best case scenario 30 minutes away.

Myself, I tend to overthink things.

Ha! Me too.

I have a suppressed bullpup with subsonic ammunition. The sights aren't the best design so I do have a trijicon MRO. Otherwise, I prefer iron/night sights.

.[/QUOTE

In my mind I see someone breaking in one of the doors late at night.

Because of the small distances and short time there will only be enough reaction time from sleep to alert to grab the gun, identify the target and pull the trigger. I don't think precise aiming through sights will be an option.

Point and shoot.

 

[Shield 9 WV]

You're expecting your wife will get woken up in the middle of the night and figure out how to operate the controls on a PCC she's not really proficient with under the extreme stress of a home invasion?

Seems like a recipe for things to get sideways there.

Agree. But alone in the country with an intruder at the door, things are already sideways.

Maybe a simpler to use weapon?
I'd be thinking a revolver or dao semi auto. Truly point and shoot.

I thought about a revolver but a six shooter might not be enough for multiple attackers.

It and a shotgun is where I started with all this. I'd like to have gotten a Benelli M4 but I didn't have two thousand bucks for a shotgun.

I started by looking for a 20 gauge semi-auto. She certainly would be afraid of a 12 gauge and I don't think she would train with a pump gun. The 870 or 590 would make great choices in 20 gauge if semi-auto.

DA pistol? Duh, I never even thought of that! I'll rethink my concerns and put a DA into the equation.

I was thinking of SA only but I didn't think she would train with it. A M&P EZ in either .380 or 9mm would have been my preference for her but if the SHTF and there are multiple attackers I don't think she could do a tactical reload in real time.

Neither. I'd prefer a layered approach. Better door and window locks. Barky dog.

No dog available.

Some motion activated exterior and interior lights.

Got those.

Flashlight if the power is out so she doesn't shoot you by mistake.

Plenty of flashlights. In particular the smaller ones with the sharp edge which can be used for self defense.

And shoot me by mistake? Yeah, that's what she'd tell the cops.


A place for your wife to retreat to and barricade in while waiting for police. If someone breaches the barricade, the pistol for defense.[/QUOTE

This house is quite small. There is just no where to retreat and barricade in time. She would be better off going out the door into the woods. Obviously that's not great either.

 

[Rastoff]

I told her that if she heard an intruder downstairs don't investigate, call the police, yell loudly that she had called the police and was armed, get on the opposite side of the bed from the bedroom door and wait.

This is quality advice and everyone should follow it. The whole post is quite good. I just shortened it for brevity in this post.

First, a pistol caliber Carbine with an 8 inch barrel is a Short Barrel Rifle.

No, the firearm in question here is a pistol. No special stamps or permission required.

I've been researching lights thanks to the recommendations here. I previously thought that brighter was better like 1000 lumens or more and then found out exactly as you recommended, inside a small house all I would likely do is blind myself.

I've settled into 300 lumen as my top number and now I'm not ruling out less.

I'm still looking.

I think this is a good idea. My current favorite is the Streamlight ProTac 1L-1AA. It can be programmed for Hi-Low only and this works great for both inside and outside. It has the option of a strobe if you're into that, but most don't like it if they ever actually use it. This light allows that feature to be locked out; I like that. It also works on either a CR123 or a AA. Less output with the AA, but it works in a pinch.

My second favorite is the Fenix LD30. This one is really nice in that it has all the options and can be easily adjusted if necessary. Can't accidentally get an output you don't want. It also can come with a rechargeable battery that has a really long life. I like that too.

 

[Shield 9 WV]

I think you're putting the cart before the horse.

I fully admit I don't have this thing completely figured out. I know what you're saying, and I'm listening.

First and foremost, what is your home defense plan? Exterior lighting, maybe with motion detectors?

Yes to both.

Landscaping that prevents hiding places for potential intruders? Sturdy, solid-core exterior doors with good quality deadbolt locks? Secured and locked windows? Alarm systems?

Yes to all, except hiding places. Not much we can do there. Don't have cameras but that wouldn't help if asleep late at night.

Any dogs? Do you have a designated safe room, like a master bedroom, preferably with a solid-core door and a good deadbolt lock?

No, no and no. This is an older house with closet door-like construction. It would be easy to kick in one of the room doors.

Do you keep a fully-charged cell phone handy to call 911 if needed (there have been instances of home invaders cutting phone lines)?

There is no cell service for miles, this is 30 miles into the country. The land line has a cordless phone with short range. I'm not sure it would work outside.

Do you practice (or at least plan to practice) home defense scenarios?

Practice, no. Plan to practice, yes, but I'll need to educate myself. My son is a LEO and he could provide expert advice.

(snip)but it will hopefully give you some things to think about and consider if you haven't already.

I worry about this stuff all the time. I don't I don't have the knowledge or experience to answer all the questions. That's why I came to you guys.

After that, you can address self defense tools. The first question to ask is how much your wife is willing to invest. Is she willing and able to use deadly force?

I don't know. I'm making a lot of assumptions here I should check out first.

If so, how much time and energy is she willing to invest in becoming competent, including not only physical training

She is over 60. The only physical training she does is yoga.

in how to use a firearm but also learning the laws about when and when not to use deadly force?

Our LEO son took us out to a range in South Carolina where he lives. She did pretty well with a Glock 19 and AR-15. That's the only thing that gives me hope.

You said your wife is not overly gun proficient, but what does that mean, exactly? Has she had any training?

No training except at the range one time with our LEO son.

Does she visit the range?

We live in West Virginia. The range is the back woods, while sitting on the porch. I do have a couple of DIY target stands for pistol and rifle.

Now that I think about it, we do have a range within an hour's drive. Neither she nor I have ever gone there.

If so, what kind of gun(s) does she shoot? What is she comfortable with? As mentioned above, how much is she will to invest in training?

She doesn't shoot and she thinks she is perfectly safe by herself in the country. It's her childhood home, both parents now deceased.

but I'm beginning to think keeping things as simple as possible is going to be the best approach,

Agree.

and to me that suggests a good double-action revolver loaded with .38 Special loads, like a S&W Model 10 or 64.

Good choices.

it might be better to rely on ambient light in order to keep things simple, but a good handheld flashlight should still be available.

No ambient light, but flashlights are easily at hand.

If a semi-auto is what she wants/prefers/feels comfortable with, then I'd suggest a standard DAO semi-auto pistol to keep things simple. A weapon-mounted light can be useful, but only if used for target verification, i.e.,

she can see the target but uses the light only to confirm a threat before firing. But that requires training and practice.

I insist she see what she's trying to shoot. I've made a little fun with this, but statistically speaking, the person she is most likely to shoot is me.

Now, if she is willing and able to practice enough with your PCC to develop and maintain competence, then that can be a viable tool, but the key word is practice. The more complex the gear, the more training and practice you have to do to be able to use it under stress. Hence my recommendation for a DA revolver.

All good advice. I think she will shoot the PCC. I think it has advantages over a pistol for someone without training. She doesn't have a lot of grip strength and I'm not sure she could control a wheel gun unless it were a .22. If it were me only I feel competent with my Shield 9.

Whatever plan/tools you and your wife decide on, I hope you never have to find out, either.

Agree.

Apologies for the novel, but I hope it'll be of at least some use to you.

And, as always, this is just my opinion.[/QUOTE

Thanks for your thoughtful reply to my questions. I read every word and hopefully add your knowledge to mine.

 

[Rastoff]

Any dogs? Do you have a designated safe room, like a master bedroom, preferably with a solid-core door and a good deadbolt lock?

No, no and no. This is an older house with closet door-like construction. It would be easy to kick in one of the room doors.

A "safe" room is not necessarily a vault. It's a designated room that you go to in an emergency. It's just a place so everyone knows where to go or where they are. Most people pick the master bedroom.

 

[Shield 9 WV]

First, a pistol caliber Carbine with an 8 inch barrel is a Short Barrel Rifle.

Thanks to your post, I double checked. It is a 6.5" barrel.

As for laser gimmicks or red dot sights,

I am not a gimmick person either. To that end I've decided not to mount a laser. Per advice further upstream ^^^ I'm going to mount a 300 lumen flashlight.

PS;, should have looked before leaping, I now realize that a Pistol Caliber Carbine is NOT a rifle like any other carbine in existence but a pistol with an abbreviated stock

You are right, and that is exactly what I wanted, all the advantages of a pistol cartridge in an easier to control platform.

BTW, the ATF has already stated that using an arm brace on the shoulder makes a pistol a SBR.

I know. Isn't that ridiculous?

My advice is if you are insistent on buying one of these gimmicks take the time and spend the money to get the proper Federal Permit for a Short Barreled Rifle. Then you can mount it on your shoulder without risk of prosecution and can build yourself a short barreled AR-15 which IMO is a much more useful firearm sometime in the future.[/QUOTE

Thanks for the advice and the thoughtful reply.

The EP9 will be here on Friday so that's a done deal. However if I find a better solution for my wife and self-defense I am always ready to drop one good idea for a better one.

For instance, if all she is comfortable with is a .22 with its mild recoil, then Ruger 10/22, here we come.