Need help identifying a S&W DA 45

[Wiregrassguy]

Per the SCSW, 4th, versions of the .44 HE were made in other calibers and all are rare. It doesn't even mention .45 ACP but does .45 Colt. A 6-1/2" barrel was standard but target sights were not. I'd really like to see more of this gun. Perhaps with the grips off?

 

[handejector]

The small trademark stamp on the side plate is also unusual. This may be a gun made in the Service Department and sent to a shooting club.

Has anyone heard of a da 45 on the left side of the barrel and the logo and the words Trade Mark on the right side of the frame. Or could it be a different model 45.

Thanks for the info, I have found the serial number it is 0251 on both the bottom of the barrel and the rear face of the yoke. Now the question is it a 1917 because it has a 6.5 in barrel. what other model could it be?

My Thoughts:
1- The gun is definitely refinished.
2- The serial number was removed from the frame, and that is definitely a problem.
3- The gun was obviously built as a club gun because of the 0 serial number on other parts.
4- The smallish logo on the sideplate is typical of the ones used in the Triple Lock and 455 Second Model era. My bet is this is a 455 Second Model frame.
5- The "S.&W. D.A. 45" barrel marking is typical for a 1917 barrel, but 1917 barrels were 5-1/2". Again, this is probably a 455 barrel marked with the typical 45 ACP mark when this gun was built.


Pics I would like to see:
1- Pic of the rear of the cylinder looking into the chambers that will clearly show the chambers and any serial number on the cylinder.
2- Pic of a 45 auto round inserted as far as it will go without a moon clip.
3- Pic of the left side of the grip frame with the grip removed.

 

[StrawHat]

I only see a club gun serial on the barrel. What I have seen is revolvers built from various parts, heck, built a couple myself.

So, I am even more curious if this is a parts Gun or a badly refinished club gun?

Kevin

 

[handejector]

I only see a club gun serial on the barrel. What I have seen is revolvers built from various parts, heck, built a couple myself.

So, I am even more curious if this is a parts Gun or a badly refinished club gun?

Kevin

He has already said the serial number match on barrel and yoke-

I have found the serial number it is 0251 on both the bottom of the barrel and the rear face of the yoke.

So, IF the assembly numbers match on frame and yoke, then we know the frame was originally numbered 0251.

 

[gmborkovic]

Agree with all the above, but! 0251 aint on the frame. Logic has no
influence on a young, up start BATFE enforcement agent, who is not a gun guy. They have the book, and quote page, paragraph, section and line of the regulations. It comes down to voluntary confiscation and no trip in cuffs down town. If you dont like this alternate, a free ride will be provided to you. Never had the direct experience, but witnessed it a few times. Now I have seen people that called and requested a face to face.
Yea, they take the gun and sometimes the lab can raise the number and re-stamp. If the frame is 0251, a letter would be some proof of originality. Good luck.

 

[Wrangler Rich]

FWIW, I have seen in a few gun shops where they have taken assembly numbers and written those assembly numbers down as serial numbers. Most often when wearing Pachs or Hogues. Couldnt see the actual serial number. I often wonder if those assembly numbers appeared on the new transfer papers.......

WR

 

[2152hq]

That's the issue..The Manufacturers Frame appied ser# is gone.
The has Manufacturers applied Ser# to the Firearm (Frame) been 'Removed, Altered, or Obliterated.....'
Just like it reads in the GCA, it's a felony to own, sell, recv, transfer, etc, etc.

Plus at this point, no one really knows if S&W Revolver cal 45 ser# 0251 is in NCIC GunFile as a Stolen Firearm.

That will be the first place any L/E agency will start.
The File searches and 'hit's by Ser# only, so there may be other hits returning. The added & misc info on each entry is used to separate and ID.

If clear (No Hit), the gun may just be confiscated anyway under the above Removed Ser# issue.
It may be given a pardon and with Heavens permission, the orig # restuck.
Sometimes the BATF will assign an 'ATF'prefix new ser# and that will be struck somewhere on the frame inspite of the fact that the orig# was identified.
I've had two such instances of this latter ATF ser# being stamped on handguns that had their factory ser# removed, Identified by lab process, the gun then restamped with the AFT# and gun returned to it's orig owner.

Lot's of things in motion...
A lot depends on who's on the other end when you contact someone.

 

[Club Gun Fan]

I think you need to letter this gun.

 

[jima1647]

Don
Thanks, I got your PM I'm trying to figure out how to respond to PM's
Jim

 

[jima1647]

I'm starting to get confused my understanding is there are 6 places a S&W serial number can be on early guns one is the butt of the gun. Another is on the Barrel on the flat near the ejector rod and another is on the yoke edge close to the cylinder. This gun has the serial number 0251 in both the last two places mentioned. So I believe it's a legal gun. Attached are photo's of area's people asked to see. 2 photos are of the lower left hand frame without the grips. 2 are of the top of the cylinder one with the extractor pushed up 2 are of a45acp in the cylinder one with a moon clip and one of the rear sight and finally one of the right side guts. Hopefully this will lead to an answer.

Here are the other pictures

 

[handejector]

I'm starting to get confused my understanding is there are 6 places a S&W serial number can be on early guns one is the butt of the gun.

Correct- there were six places that old S&Ws had the serial number. However, only the serial number on the frame was required by law. S&W numbered the other parts just so they could be reassembled on the correct gun after it had been disassembled for the final finish.
So, without the serial number on the FRAME, the gun is illegal.

 

[gmborkovic]

Mr. jima, as stated before, flawless logic. Here on the Forum. The enforcement person you are talking to does not posess the same logic we do. So, just go for it.

 

[Aussie Collector]

Very interesting revolver. I have nothing to add regarding the model. Looking forward to reading more about it.
I will say I thought serial numbers on firearms were made a legal requirement in the US in the 1960s. Having said that this gun left the factory without a serial number on the frame prior. On the other hand there is a serial number on the gun 0251. Unless the number has been defaced I don't see an issue.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

Very interesting revolver. I have nothing to add regarding the model. Looking forward to reading more about it.
I will say I thought serial numbers on firearms were made a legal requirement in the US in the 1960s. Having said that this gun left the factory without a serial number on the frame prior. On the other hand there is a serial number on the gun 0251. Unless the number has been defaced I don't see an issue.

See Post #27.

You cannot remove a Serial Number just because it was made before 1968.

 

[hkcavalier]

Very interested to keep up with this thread. I passed on a not quite as interesting (but still very intriguing) prewar N frame a few years back because of the same issue.

Very odd .45ACP HE?

 

[Wiregrassguy]

I think you need to letter this gun.

Don is trying to tell you that the gun is important enough to spend $100 for a letter, even though there are questions about it being legal. The lack of a legal serial number can be fixed. It may not be easy but it can and has been done. The letter process may help smooth this process.

 

[Aussie Collector]

See Post #27.

You cannot remove a Serial Number just because it was made before 1968.

I'm not convinced a serial number was ever on the butt of this revolver. When it was made it was not a requirement is what I'm saying. Possibly a club gun. I've seen and held one other Smith & Wesson firearm that did not have a serial number.

 

[handejector]

S&W always numbered the frames of club guns.
This gun had a number when it left S&W.

 

[Club Gun Fan]

I'm not so sure it ever had a serial number stamped on the butt.

 

[BSA1]

Correct- there were six places that old S&Ws had the serial number. However, only the serial number on the frame was required by law. S&W numbered the other parts just so they could be reassembled on the correct gun after it had been disassembled for the final finish.
So, without the serial number on the FRAME, the gun is illegal.

When were the frame of handguns required by Federal Law to be stamped / engraved / permanently marked?

Does the law apply retroactively to handguns manufactured before the law was passed?

Does the law apply retroactively to long guns manufactured before the law was passed?

What about firearms manufactured before 1899?

The suggestion is being made to get the gun lettered. How can when the gun was manufactured be determined without a serial number on the frame?