Need help identifying and old S&W Revolver

[Dolf]

Hello I have an early triple lock cal. 455 is strange that it has an adjustable rear sight and a pin front sight, as well as a checkering trigger.
can you tell me what kind of model it could be?
I once read of a "Bisley - model" but unfortunately found no pictures.
It has some English proof marks.
The Ser. No. is 1519
Thanks in advance
Christian

 

[Kansasgunner]

Welcome to the forum! And that’s an impressive first post. I believe what you have is a Military Target revolver. The rear sights are drift adjustable to meet the match requirements. Hondo44 will be along to give you much more details about these revolvers. Very neat old gun.

 

[Dolf]

Here is a picture of the bottom handle there is a 4 that is maybe the serial number

 

[mrcvs]

Let's see what others think, but I think yours is an after market modification.

First, the lanyard ring style is incorrect. If Smith & Wesson had placed that, they ould have situated the serial number not in the centre of the butt but offset to one side. I think to the rear and not to the front, but I could be wrong. Also, a portion of the original serial number would not be peeking through. If that is a "4", then the serial number ends in a 4. I think what you think is the serial number is an assembly number.

The serial number can be found in multiple places but the easiest for you, as the one on the butt is obliterated, is to look in the ejector rod shroud. You provided a photograph of that, but I cannot see what exactly it is.

Interestingly, this has the non medallion stocks, which suggests this particular revolver was assembled pre mid 1910. Which is interesting in itself, as independent of the after market sight modifications and probable after market checkered trigger, these stocks were affixed to a revolver which is in .455 Webley but long before the British Contract of circa 1914. So, what is anyone's guess as to the FIRST .455 Webley Triple Lock ever assembled?

Of course, these stocks may have originated from an earlier gun, which is possible, although unlikely, as the non medallion stocks are much rarer than the later medallion ones.

This is my best guess from the photographs provided, but I could be wrong. A factory letter using the actual serial number and not the assembly number could prove helpful.

 

[linde]

... The Ser. No. is 1519 ...

Here is a picture of the bottom handle there is a 4 that is maybe the serial number

The 4 is definitely part of the serial number ... the 1519 is an assembly number and not the serial number. The lanyard loop was added after the gun was initially produced. If it was added by the factory (either before it shipped or if returned to the factory) the full serial number will be stamped on the left side of the grip frame (under the left grip panel).

There are several other placed the full s/n appears but start by looking on the rear face of the cylinder.

Very nice Triple-Lock ... and welcome to the Forum.

Russ

 

[rct269]

Well, I have seen any number of aftermarket modifications adding a "drift adjustable" rear sight. Without exception, the width of the sight was the same as the width of the frame--suggesting the need for a punch to "drift adjust" the sight-----and suggesting they who performed the modification were not too bright. So be it.

Your sight would appear to be "drift adjustable" without the use of a punch, and that made me sit up and take notice.

The bottom line of all this is: Get a letter. There are no alternatives. We can sit around and jaw jack about all this until the cows come home, and accomplish nothing----maybe a little less. Get a letter!

Ralph Tremaine

And having said all that, there is one matter to tend to before ordering the letter; and that is determining the actual, real, honest to God serial number-------and proving it with a photo of where you got it.

 

[wetdog]

There is a number in the front of ejector rod shroud, 40?4. Also on the rear of the cylinder.

 

[Dolf]

In the ejector housing and on the drum it says 4054 that would also match the 4 as the last digit of the serial number next to the ring hole.
Than the serial number is 4054

 

[Dolf]

Here a pic

 

[Dolf]

And cylinder

 

[Dolf]

Bigger pic from the cylinder

 

[mrcvs]

Okay, 4054 It is!

Send for a letter today and be sure to post it once it arrives.

With the backlog, this will be around 01 March.

 

[red9]

Another point of interest. I do not see any military acceptance marks, but apparent commercial proofs on the cylinder. Definitely rates a letter.

Bob

 

[Wrangler Rich]

Dolf, welcome to the forum, thanks for giving us an early Christmas present. You have a very interesting Triple Lock.
Could you share with us just how it came into your possession? And, I wonder if you are from Great Britain, as you phrase things slightly differently than American born and raised enthusiasts would.
Looking forward to more info.

WR

 

[Jim Watson]

That is a nice looking revolver. As befitting a target model, it appears to have been shot a good bit.

I wish somebody was putting on sights like that now.
We have highly customized police trade in revolvers but still with the hog wallow rear sight.

 

[Hondo44]

Dolf,

Thanks for sharing your very interesting and rare S&W!

Clearly not a military contract .455 with its 7 1/2" barrel and 4054 serial #, rather a rare misc. early commercial production 44 TL 1st Model factory chambered in .455. Maybe only about 40 or so estimated.

The few .455s ordered before the BSRs were typically ordered for Bisley matches in England and therefore with Bisley match rule conforming improved sights. Since S&W's adjustable target sight did not conform, they accommodated the need as I believe they did with your gun. They are often referred to as the "Military Sight", they have nothing to do with the military and I call them "Bisley Sight". Front sights on these factory installations vary depending on customer specification.

However I'd appreciate closer photos of the rear sight from the back and the side, because it does appear to be a factory installation from what little I can see. And as posted above, a S&W authentication will confirm and is the only way to confirm. The checkered trigger also appears to be factory of which we've seen several.

Here are photos of S&Ws installation for you to compare with:

Factory sights that letter as original and shipped to England here Post #7:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...58-interesting-triple-lock.html#post137992489

Photo courtesy of Masterpiece

Photo courtesy of Masterpiece

Factory target checkered trigger:

Another letter confirmed factory slightly different Bisley sight:

Photo by red9

Your grips are the correct style however not likely original due to the poor fit. Check the back of the right grip for serial # in pencil.

 

[mrcvs]

Sometimes one needs to pick up a book every now and again.

Having not seen one before, I was not aware of the British Target variation.

The latest edition of SCSW states these were produced in the 4100 and 4300 range. 4054 isn't too far away.

The book states that those in .455 Webley were produced beginning in Sept 1914. My guess is that this is in reference to the military production for the British government. If this is applicable to all production, then the non medallion stocks are likely not original. If there are exceptions to this, and this shipped earlier, then the stocks very well may be original.

Although uncommon today, there would have been a time when the non medallion stocks extant exceeded the medallion ones or were not much less common than the medallion ones, so switching them out would not have been unusual, medallion for non medallion, etc.

Also, I own two Triple Lock revolvers, both of which shipped in 1913, and they have non medallion stocks. I am 99% confident that both have the original stocks. As Smith & Wesson did not ship in the order assembled, I'm confident both of these were assembled mid 1910 or before.

So, it's possible that this revolver might have shipped at a much later date and still has non medallion stocks. Or maybe it shipped well before September 1914 as it is not of military production.

 

[Dolf]

Jim, that's a very detailed answer.
Thank you so much for that.
yes you are right, the right grip is without a number.
Enclosed you will find pictures of the sight.
Then to answer further questions from other members of this forum, I come from Germany, have a gun shop here and the revolver belongs to a friend of mine.
He brought the revolver with him from Afghanistan in the 1980s.
If the revolver is really a complete factory production, how would you estimate the value in this condition?
The barrel is as shiny as a mirror and the timing is excellent.
Such revolvers are rarely offered here in Germany, so I have no feeling for the price.
I can just send an e-mail to S&W about a S&W letter about the revolver with pictures and ser. No. and then get an answer at some point, or how does it work?
Thanks in advance
Christian

 

[mrcvs]

Here's how to order a letter: Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation - Home Page - Insuring that the rich history of Smith & Wesson will continue for generations to come

 

[Green Frog]

Afghanistan? Tha revolver has had an interesting life, no doubt! It may have traveled there in the latter days of the British Empire in the hands of an officer or an enthusiastic shooter (ambassador, consular staff, etc?) and then been left marooned in the Middle East on the passing or reassignment of whoever owned it. It's been somewhere, or perhaps many places over the last 100+ years, and if it could talk, the stories it could tell would likely amaze us all.

As for value, that old, that model, and virtually unaltered? If placed at auction here in the US and a couple of determined bidders in attendance, and the price would quickly go into the stratosphere! I'm not familiar with the German gun market and your laws, but that is a significant enough piece that you could probably get interest from one of the international auction houses to handle it.

Tell your friend congratulations, and to you welcome to the forum and thank you for showing us a significant piece of S&W history!

Regards
Green Frog