Need some AR advice

[DesertFox]

C4,
Sweet machine.

 

[Stebo]

Warning! What I am about to say will be taken by some as offensive so please read with an open mind!

RRA/BM/Oly/DPMS/S&W, etc all over gas their AR's because they know their main customer base. Meaning that they know the reason why people buy their AR's (because they are cheap). They also know that they are most likely going to shoot the worst (read under pressured) .223 available (Wolf, Tula, etc). This means that the possibility of short stroking is pretty good and is why they over gas their AR's (as they don't want CS calls complaining that their AR's don't run).

C4

Not offended.

I would be one of those customers shooting the worst .223. I would expect then that my Colt 6920 would be short stroking since it is not over gassed?

 

[smithman 10]

Dang! I was fixing to go shoot either my Sport or my Colt tomorrow but I stumbled on this thread and read the whole thing and now I'm plumb tired out!

But if I should get up enough energy to visit the range, which of these two rifles should I take? I'm all confused now.

Seriously, I bet I'm like most of the posters who are just shooting these rifles for recreation so in the grand scheme of things, what's all the fuss about?

Of course, I would like to know which rifle is likely to be the most reliable so that if I ever had to use one for "serious" purposes I'd know which one to grab!

I know I've posted these photos of my two "modern sporting rifles" many times but I never get tired of showing them off. Second photo shows the other side of the Colt.

 

[rtquig]

C4
Thanks for the explanation. These posts and opinions are very informative.

 

[C4IGrant]

They were 6920's

I don't need to take any class. We have people here who are armorers certified by Colt. We also have people who are H&K and S&W certified armorers. These people have years of professional experience in weapons design, construction, testing, maintenance, repair, gun smithing, manufacturing, and instructing. The one with the least experience has 20 years of experiece, the rest have more. Some of them have actually worked for or contracted with these arms manufacturers at one time or another. A few of them also have a Picitinny Arsenal background where they worked with this platform, and actually helped develop specs for weapons. None of them has ever said or endorsed that 4140 steel is a "red flag" and means over pressure and out of spec chambers. When I asked some of them about this they said some people think that but overall its not true. These are professional armorers, among other aspects, who work on and repair AR's for a living as well. It is not true that 4140 steel means a weapon is over gassed or has an out of spec chamber. 4140 steel is well suited to semi-auto fire of civilian AR's.

So you "have people" that know, but it isn't you? Just making things clear. Which 4140 barrel have "your people" examined and found them to not be either over gassed or have an out of spec chamber??? Brand names please.

We know they were out of spec because we checked them and Colt verified it.

How did you check? What EXACTLY did you do (or your people do) to verify this?? So when you sent the guns back to Colt to check, why did they send them back to you without fixing them? You said you "destroyed" them. This seems odd to me because they should have been fixed from the factory. Sorry, but something is not making sense here.

We destroyed them bacause we do not have a choice. Most all the others we transfered to other agencies. These were the last ones left and no one else wanted them. We are not permitted to keep weapons over alloted inventory numbers, they had been replaced in inventory by the S&W, and our time limit was up to have them transfered elsewhere so we got a directive to destroy them.

Wait, you transferred guns that weren't working properly to other LE agencies to use for duty???

Can't be correct. All the internal parts in the 6920's we disposed of were not the same as the M-4 parts, this was verified by Colt.

Like which parts?? Exact parts please and then I run this by Colt to validate it and report back.

Per BATF requirements, all manufacturers of semi-auto AR's for the civilian available market are required to make civilian available AR versions internally different from the military version. These changes mostly involve the bolt carrier, hammer, and milling the internal lower receiver slightly different, and of course the rest of the auto related stuff. Colt can not use all the same set of parts for civilian available models as used in the military M-4.

Yes, that means FA SEAR & FA hammer. Now many companies won't put a FA hammer in a semi-auto gun, but they will sell you this hammer and you can install it into your AR (with no issues from the ATF). The bolt carrier is EXACTLY the same. The lower CAN be identical (less the SEAR hole) if the manufacturer chooses to (like DD, BCM, Noveske, etc).

In regards to Colt, they are stuck with some chitty deals worked out between them and their State so their lowers won't let you use an RDIAS. This has nothing to do with any ATF rules or regs.

They may be around $1,000.00 at what you sale them for but the national average ranges $1100 to $1300 depending on where you buy from and the middle of that range is around $1200.00.

I am not familiar with national averages, but I do know what people can jump online and get them for.

I don't profess to know the minds of these manufacturers like you do, but I do know one thing and thats other manufacturers don't have a Colt for other than business reasons. I know this from speaking with them during the selection process to replace our Colts. Why these other companies may have a Colt around also? Not a suprise at all, if I didn't want to upset the bear I would not poke it with a stick either. If a company knows it will either get sued or life made extreamly difficult for them in the market place they will probably not poke the bear and probably not compete for the bears territory. As an example, look at what happened to Bushmaster and Heckler & Koch when they were sued by Colt for, among other things, blurring the distinction between Colt's product and their own when they started going after the civilian and military market with their own M-4 models and Colt claimed they duplicated the look and feel of the Colt. Its the reason why the Heckler & Koch 416 is called the "416" today instead of the "M-4" it was originally called, both Bushmaster and H&K were considered as possible military suppliers for the M-4 to either replace Colt or along with Colt but that was squelched when Colt filed their lawsuit. It cost Bushmaster and H&K millions to fight that lawsuit and they were forced to re-design somewhat, re-market, and re-manufacture somewhat, to "unblur" the distinction costing yet more millions. Other manufacturers learned from that, don't poke the bear.

Colt is in the business of protecting their share of the market place. All companies do this.

One of the reasons, among others, some manufacturers keep a Colt for "reference" is to make sure their own product does not duplicate the look and feel of the Colt along with its function specifications, they know what will happen if they get too close and even if they prevail it will still have cost them millions and Colt would still go after them in the market making it extreamly difficult and painful for them.

I have never found this the case. It always to reverse engineer and to make sure they are doing things right. I know this for a fact.

So to say Colt is some sort of "Gold Standard" is grosely overstating, its like saying a football team is the undisputed champion when they became that way because they were allowed to handicap the other team in every game. So yeah its easy to be a "Gold Standard" when no one else is allowed to compete fully.

Clue? Hardly, its business plain and simple. Its true that Colt makes a fine weapon but other manufacturers do too.

Most any AR manufacturer will tell you that they consider Colt to be the standard in the industry. S&W knows it, BCM knows it, etc, etc.

Lot's AR manufacturers make great guns. At the end of the day (when talking about a fighting weapon), Colt is still the standard.

4140 is less expensive per unit (not necessarily cheaper) than for example 4150, but it is not inferior or lack quality as you imply for semi auto civilian AR weapons.

Is it the end of the world if a Civy AR has 4140 steel? Nope. As I have said over and over there is a stronger possibility of another issue though and buyer just needs to be aware of this and do their research.

Colt cuts costs also on many of their civilian available models yet keeps their MSRP prices on the average or generally higher than a comparable model from another manufacturer which causes on the average national retail sales to remain higher than comparable models from other manufacturers. They don't pass on the savings from cost cutting to the consumer like other manufacturers may do in their pricing. Yet at the same time they are advertising the Colt "legend" surrounding their involvement in the military platform and using it to suggest in such a manner as to lead people to believe they will get an "original" the same thing as the military models when that is not possible for civilian available AR versions, and the rest is the broad generalizations and opinons from people.

Really? Do you have any examples of this? As a Colt Commercial Distributor, I cannot say this is true. For the record, I am also a DD and BCM Master Distr. and Colt's pricing is right inline with them.

From what I know (as a Colt Distr. and having personal friends inside of the company), the consumer IS getting a TDP following, mil-spec weapon (same as the M4) less the capability to make it FA.

Something I am curious about; Are you going to continue the sales pitch infomercial by continuing to imply people wasted their money on S&W for one reason or another with broad unqualified generalizations and opinions and they should consider or buy a Colt instead because you happen to sale Colts for around $1,000.00?

I am concerned you haven't been reading what I have written. I am a S&W LE Distr. So I make my living selling S&W products. Truth is, I am a huge fan of S&W so much so that I am typically labeled a "fanboy" for the company on other forums. I have direct input in many of the models you see (M&P MOE, M&P Magpul Edition, SPORT, etc). So no, I don't think ANYONE wasted their money by buying a S&W AR. In fact, they offer some of the best AR's for the money on the market. My main complaint is that they don't make enough of them (as AR sales are 3rd fiddle to them behind revolvers and auto loaders).



C4

 

[C4IGrant]

Not offended.

I would be one of those customers shooting the worst .223. I would expect then that my Colt 6920 would be short stroking since it is not over gassed?

It could. There are many variables here so it would be a case by case type thing.

LMT, for instance, uses the proper gas port size. They advise their customers that they tune their gas ports for M855 and if you get short stroking issues, it is on you.



C4

 

[C4IGrant]

Dang! I was fixing to go shoot either my Sport or my Colt tomorrow but I stumbled on this thread and read the whole thing and now I'm plumb tired out!

But if I should get up enough energy to visit the range, which of these two rifles should I take? I'm all confused now.

Seriously, I bet I'm like most of the posters who are just shooting these rifles for recreation so in the grand scheme of things, what's all the fuss about?

Of course, I would like to know which rifle is likely to be the most reliable so that if I ever had to use one for "serious" purposes I'd know which one to grab!

I know I've posted these photos of my two "modern sporting rifles" many times but I never get tired of showing them off. Second photo shows the other side of the Colt.

Shoot both!

To be honest, I do not own a single "factory" built AR. I prefer to build my own and hand select each and every part. There isn't a spring, detent to screw in my AR that I don't know where it came from. After many years in this industry as an armorer, dealer, consultant and trainer I have come to realization that I don't want a disgruntled, underpaid guy at some company building my AR. YMMV.



C4

 

[C4IGrant]

C4
Thanks for the explanation. These posts and opinions are very informative.

You are welcome Sir. Feel free to PM me if you have a question about anything I have said.



C4

 

[Foxtrot]

So you "have people" that know, but it isn't you? Just making things clear. Which 4140 barrel have "your people" examined and found them to not be either over gassed or have an out of spec chamber??? Brand names please.

So? I go to a doctor when I need medical attention, so that means because I didn't know what was wrong that the doctor is wrong too?

In light of some of your posts; So you "have friends" that know, but it isn't you?

So, big deal, yes we have people that work for us - I guess that secret is out now, darn it.

I've noticed on your web site you do not list Colt armorer certification in the list of your qualifications. So in the interest of making things clear, what exactly are your Colt certifications? Or are these things not shown in the qualifications on the web site simply because your web site has not been updated to show these? After all you did say in one post this making it seem like expert opinion:

4140 is the cheapest steel used in the AR world. It is a cost cutting measure. So when I see this, two concerns always come to mind (being over gassed and having an out of spec chamber). These concerns are based off of YEARS of experience as a professional armorer and having talked to the best armorers in the business.

How did you check? What EXACTLY did you do (or your people do) to verify this?? So when you sent the guns back to Colt to check, why did they send them back to you without fixing them? You said you "destroyed" them. This seems odd to me because they should have been fixed from the factory. Sorry, but something is not making sense here.

I never said we sent these last 17 back to the factory did I? Actually Colt offered to replace the weapons in the end, we decided to wait until the selection process was over before making that decision. When the selection process was complete, we did not go with Colt and it did not fit into our plans to have the Colts replaced and still them on hand as we would not be permitted to keep them because we would be over inventory allotment.

Seems odd and doesn't make sense to you? Contrary to your own implied opinon, not everything in the AR world, or many other sectors dealing with AR's, happens with your knowledge or permission even when it comes to Colt.

Wait, you transferred guns that weren't working properly to other LE agencies to use for duty???

I never said the weapons we did transfer wern't working properly. I said some of the 17 we had left (these had not been transfered which is why we had them left) had out of spec chambers. Would we have transfered them if someone wanted them? Yes, because Colt would have replaced them before we transfered them so the transfee would have gotten new weapons. There were no takers for them, our time limit was up and we got a directive to destroy them.

Like which parts?? Exact parts please and then I run this by Colt to validate it and report back.

If we needed you to validate anything we would have contacted you, good thing we didn't though. Colts own validation was enough, after all they are certified. We don't need a report from you.

In regards to Colt, they are stuck with some chitty deals worked out between them and their State so their lowers won't let you use an RDIAS. This has nothing to do with any ATF rules or regs.

So, the BATF requirements have no bearing in this? Hmmm, Yeah... ok. I guess then the BATF will be relieved to know that you have it covered then, on second thought maybe not.

I am not familiar with national averages, but I do know what people can jump online and get them for.

Sure, people can jump on line every day and get decent or better prices by selectively shopping, never said they couldn't.

Lot's AR manufacturers make great guns. At the end of the day (when talking about a fighting weapon), Colt is still the standard.

People in this forum, and the rest of the civilian AR market, are not buying a fighting gun now are they? If another manufacturer had the contract, for example if Bushmaster and/or H&K had also gotten the contract they would be the standard also. The contract is the only reason Colt or anyone else's opinion about Colt can claim Colt to be the "standard" for a fighting weapon. Similiar to like I posted previously, its easy to be a "standard" when no one else is allowed to compete.

Is it the end of the world if a Civy AR has 4140 steel? Nope. As I have said over and over there is a stronger possibility of another issue though and buyer just needs to be aware of this and do their research.

After citing your qualifications in such a manner as to make your personal opinion with unqualified statements sprinkled in seem like expert opinion (which is misleading somewhat), its difficult to think that although you did not say it out right that your comments were not anything but trying to say that it was the "end of the world" if 4140 steel was used.

Really? Do you have any examples of this? As a Colt Commercial Distributor, I cannot say this is true. For the record, I am also a DD and BCM Master Distr. and Colt's pricing is right inline with them.

Oh gee whiz. That answers a lot.

From what I know (as a Colt Distr. and having personal friends inside of the company), the consumer IS getting a TDP following, mil-spec weapon (same as the M4) less the capability to make it FA.

Hmmmm. nope, This is what you said: "I will tell you that Colt only has ONE assembly line. They also only have ONE set of parts. So a Military issued M4 gets the same parts as a 6920 (less the 14.5 barrel and auto sear)."

You did not say "the consumer IS getting a TDP following, mil-spec weapon (same as the M4) less the capability to make it FA"

1. There is not only "one set of parts".

2. The 6920 does not use all the same parts as the military issued M4 and there can not be only one set of parts (exclusive of considering, since you mentioned it, the 14.5 barrel and auto sear.)

3. No, the consumer is not getting a Colt civilian available AR that is the same as the M4, or a civilian available AR that is "TDP following, mil-spec weapon". It may be true that the general TDP or mil-spec parameters are applied in some general aspect (e.g. materials...) because after all the Colt civilian available AR is produced in the same general manufacturing infrastructure, but the civilian available Colt AR is not a mil-spec AR.

Its correct that Colt parts, in a general sense, may use some of the same parts as the military M4 in the 6920 at times. However, it is not correct, in the specific, that all parts are the same between the M4 and the 6920. Sometimes you may find an M4 part directly applied in a 6920, we had a few that had a few parts that were M4 parts but did not have all the same internal parts as the M4 (not considering the auto fire stuff), and all of the 6920's we had did not have the few M4 parts those few had.

I am concerned you haven't been reading what I have written. I am a S&W LE Distr. So I make my living selling S&W products. Truth is, I am a huge fan of S&W so much so that I am typically labeled a "fanboy" for the company on other forums. I have direct input in many of the models you see (M&P MOE, M&P Magpul Edition, SPORT, etc). So no, I don't think ANYONE wasted their money by buying a S&W AR. In fact, they offer some of the best AR's for the money on the market. My main complaint is that they don't make enough of them (as AR sales are 3rd fiddle to them behind revolvers and auto loaders).

Don't be concerned at all. I read every word you wrote, and so did a few other people.

Oh, now S&W's are some of the best AR's on the market? Previously you implied they have a short life span, used 4140 steel, and a whole slew of other things, in your presented "expert" opinion which didn't seem to bear out your statements now that they are some of the best AR's on the market. How odd and to use your words, "Sorry, but something is not making sense here."

I'll let you go find someone else to play sales games with because this is getting out of hand. It is greatly offensive that you would imply and express we would purposely endanger the lives of fellow law enforcement officers by intentionally transfering weapons to them that were not working properly.

 

[C4IGrant]

So? I go to a doctor when I need medical attention, so that means because I didn't know what was wrong that the doctor is wrong too?

In light of some of your posts; So you "have friends" that know, but it isn't you?

So, big deal, yes we have people that work for us - I guess that secret is out now, darn it.

I've noticed on your web site you do not list Colt armorer certification in the list of your qualifications. So in the interest of making things clear, what exactly are your Colt certifications? Or are these things not shown in the qualifications on the web site simply because your web site has not been updated to show these? After all you did say in one post this making it seem like expert opinion:

Firsthand information is king where I come from. When it is second or third hand there are usually details missing.

We have not updated our training resume in years. Sorry, I was not aware that it was required.

I never said we sent these last 17 back to the factory did I? Actually Colt offered to replace the weapons in the end, we decided to wait until the selection process was over before making that decision. When the selection process was complete, we did not go with Colt and it did not fit into our plans to have the Colts replaced and still them on hand as we would not be permitted to keep them because we would be over inventory allotment.

They didn't work. So I would assume you would send them back (as they are under warranty).

I never said the weapons we did transfer wern't working properly. I said some of the 17 we had left (these had not been transfered which is why we had them left) had out of spec chambers. Would we have transfered them if someone wanted them? Yes, because Colt would have replaced them before we transfered them so the transfee would have gotten new weapons. There were no takers for them, our time limit was up and we got a directive to destroy them.

Got it.

If we needed you to validate anything we would have contacted you, good thing we didn't though. Colts own validation was enough, after all they are certified. We don't need a report from you.

How did they validate them? Did you send them back to Colt and they told you? Originally you stated that YOUR PEOPLE verified that they were out of spec. I asked you how you did this. To date, no info has been provided. Were you planning on answering this question?

So, the BATF requirements have no bearing in this? Hmmm, Yeah... ok. I guess then the BATF will be relieved to know that you have it covered then, on second thought maybe not.

In this instance, none. I am a 07/02 and am quite familiar the law. What you are saying is that manufacturers cannot use FA components into a Civy AR15. This is correct, but is really only one part (auto sear) and possibly a FA hammer (not seen a ruling on this though). They can have the following;

1. FA BCG
2. Lower that will accept an RDIAS
3. FCG pin size of .154

People in this forum, and the rest of the civilian AR market, are not buying a fighting gun now are they? If another manufacturer had the contract, for example if Bushmaster and/or H&K had also gotten the contract they would be the standard also. The contract is the only reason Colt or anyone else's opinion about Colt can claim Colt to be the "standard" for a fighting weapon. Similiar to like I posted previously, its easy to be a "standard" when no one else is allowed to compete.

I don't know what they are buying their AR's for. I would assume that everyone that buys an AR has in the back of the mind that they COULD use it to defend themselves.

Much like winning the Gold medal in the Olympics, it sets you apart from the other competitors. While they may be good, they are not the "GOLD" standard.

Many companies compete against Colt. One off the top of my head is BCM. They follow the TDP as closely as they can and basically duplicate what Colt does. This is why they make some of the best AR's on the planet. So your idea that companies cannot follow what Colt does is an incorrect assumption.

Hmmmm. nope, This is what you said: "I will tell you that Colt only has ONE assembly line. They also only have ONE set of parts. So a Military issued M4 gets the same parts as a 6920 (less the 14.5 barrel and auto sear)."

You did not say "the consumer IS getting a TDP following, mil-spec weapon (same as the M4) less the capability to make it FA"

1. There is not only "one set of parts".

2. The 6920 does not use all the same parts as the military issued M4 and there can not be only one set of parts (exclusive of considering, since you mentioned it, the 14.5 barrel and auto sear.)

3. No, the consumer is not getting a Colt civilian available AR that is the same as the M4, or a civilian available AR that is "TDP following, mil-spec weapon". It may be true that the general TDP or mil-spec parameters are applied in some general aspect (e.g. materials...) because after all the Colt civilian available AR is produced in the same general manufacturing infrastructure, but the civilian available Colt AR is not a mil-spec AR.

If you are going to nitpick over wording then I will be as exact as possible from now on.

1. There is one set of parts. The two main parts that do not come in a 6920 (for example) is a FA hammer and a sear. The hammer that Colt does use is correct in every other way (surface hardness, phosphating, etc). These parts cannot come into the gun because of the law. So it's not that Colt is trying to give the consumer a "lessor" product in any way shape or form.

2. You can actually get the 14.5" barrel (as a factory registered SBR LE6921). Yes, Civy's cannot get the sear, but LE can. So then we would have an identical weapon (RO977).

3. The only way to get a TRUE M4 is to enlist in the Military or work for an LE agency. This is all true and everyone knows it. The differences between the two though are SO miniscule that to argue about one or two parts simply blows my mind. It is like having a car that is able to race in NASCAR, but since it doesn't have the roll cage, it is somehow less quality.

Oh, now S&W's are some of the best AR's on the market? Previously you implied they have a short life span, used 4140 steel, and a whole slew of other things, in your presented "expert" opinion which didn't seem to bear out your statements now that they are some of the best AR's on the market. How odd and to use your words, "Sorry, but something is not making sense here."

I am back to being concerned about your ability to read what I write and comprehend it. What I said was; BEST AR FOR THE MONEY. There is no denying that the SPORT (for instance) is a fantastic value. Is it the best AR on the market? No, it is not IMHO.

I'll let you go find someone else to play sales games with because this is getting out of hand. It is greatly offensive that you would imply and express we would purposely endanger the lives of fellow law enforcement officers by intentionally transfering weapons to them that were not working properly.

No idea who is selling anything. What is happening is that you fail to answer questions (like on how you verified the chambers on the 6920's were out of spec, which 4140 barrels have you personally seen that had the proper gas port size and chamber dims). You got caught making statements that you simply cannot back up. Own up to it or provide proof.

On top of this, you want to take basically one or two parts (that don't appear in a 6920 or 6921) and say that they ENTIRE gun is not built to the TDP. This is the dumbest thing I think I have ever heard.


C4