I'm looking to get a new AR, and need a little advice. This will be my first AR style rifle. I've been looking around and it seems to get what I want, the best route is to buy the upper and lower receivers seperately. I was looking at the M&P 15 lower with a BCM upper. Any thoughts on this combination? Also, any thoughts on a 16" vs an 18" barrel?
Need some AR advice
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storeyteller
Member
The 18" barrel will give you about 100fps more than the 16". This will only make a difference if you are shooting past 300yds. Also if you are using irons you may achieve more accuracy due to the increase in sight plane. I like my M&P sport. Got nothing on the BCM. Good luck. Hope you get what you want.
OP
It's not so much what I can't get elsewhere, but more of a price point. I found some that have the 13" quad rail ff handguard already installed, which is what I want. Overall it was cheaper to get their upper than to buy the handguard separately and then have it installed.
JaPes
Member
I'm a little slow tonight. Are you going to assemble a stripped M&P 15 lower, or you have a source for a complete M&P 15 lower & topping it off with a complete upper?
All you need is a couple roll pin punches, vise-grips, masking tape, a screw-driver or hex head driver, and a castle nut wrench. In less than 20 min, bingo-bango-boingo... assembled lower.
All you need is a couple roll pin punches, vise-grips, masking tape, a screw-driver or hex head driver, and a castle nut wrench. In less than 20 min, bingo-bango-boingo... assembled lower.
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Conan; The Sig is a military platform which some have pointed out and they are correct is a 3MOA platform, the Smith is a modern sporting rifle and with the PC you do get a 1MOA barrel. That is quite a bit of accuracy difference. On the Sigs website they even state that you get a Military Chrome lined barrel with a 1:7 twist according to what I just looked up with the PC you get a 20" 1:8 SS Match Barrel. With the Sig you get a military trigger with the PC you get a 2 stage match trigger. Plus the MSRP on the PC is less. I would recommend the PC hands down!! If you look around you may be able to pick up the S&W cheaper plus it is Made in the USA. I would love to be able to afford one.
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crofoot629
Absent Comrade
Why not just buy a Colt 6920?
Emory
Emory
JaPes
Member
Oh boy. Here we go again.
The AR platform is a 3 MOA platform, not that it will only shoot 3 MOA. The Sig's, Colts, and Smiths are AR platforms.
The 3 MOA is in reference to the standard military issue platform and capability of the basic skills shooter of the military platform. The Sig's, Colts, and Smiths are AR platforms based upon the military platform.
As for the term "Modern Sporting Rifle" applied - a short definiton is: The term "Modern Sporting Rifle" is a marketing term for use distinction preception in relation to application, not a seperate distinct class of AR platform firearm.
The term "Modern Sporting Rifle" is a term put forth, and a campaign, by the National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF). Their more complete rationale and "definition" for the term can be read here > Facts | Modern Sporting Rifle
There are really only four major differences between the civilian version and the military version in reference to the term "Modern Sporting Rifle" :
Due to these differences, the civilian AR platform is on par with other types and styles of semi-auto platforms used for sporting purposes in civilian market and ownership, thus the campaign by NSSF to distinguish between the military and civilian versions by using the term "Modern Sporting Rifle". The term is intended to get away from and counter the falsely emotional and uneducated based preception stigma used by anti-gun groups that the civilian AR version is also a military type assault rifle simply because it follows the same basics of style. The term "Modern Sporting Rifle" for the civilian AR platform is also intended for public education purposes in respect to the differences. Thus enters the "use distinction preception in relation to application" part of the short definition of "Modern Sporting Rifle"
Basic design, engineering, structure, style, operation, parts, manufacturer methods and materials remain essentially the same between the civilian "AR" model designation and the military "M" model designation except for those things which are intended for military only models.
The Sig's, Colts, S&W, are all AR platforms derived from and adhering in some manner to military/mil-spec standards and/or style and have changes or features which are more attractive or applicapable to the civilian market but do not include military only model function or parts. When the term "Modern Sporting Rifle" is applied to them its marketing and not a seperate type of new firearm class that magically appeared.
The 3 MOA is in reference to the standard military issue platform and capability of the basic skills shooter of the military platform. The Sig's, Colts, and Smiths are AR platforms based upon the military platform.
As for the term "Modern Sporting Rifle" applied - a short definiton is: The term "Modern Sporting Rifle" is a marketing term for use distinction preception in relation to application, not a seperate distinct class of AR platform firearm.
The term "Modern Sporting Rifle" is a term put forth, and a campaign, by the National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF). Their more complete rationale and "definition" for the term can be read here > Facts | Modern Sporting Rifle
There are really only four major differences between the civilian version and the military version in reference to the term "Modern Sporting Rifle" :
• The "AR" stands for ArmaLite rifle, after the company that developed the original platform in the 1950s. "AR" does NOT stand for "assault rifle" or "automatic rifle." The military uses an 'M' designation for their firearms (e.g. M-16A2, M-4, etc...). Civilian versions are designated "AR-15" generically as a class of firearms and not a specific firearm type as the military 'M' designation.
• AR rifles sold to the civilian market are NOT "assault weapons" or "assault rifles." An assault rifle is or has fully automatic (or has automatic type fire such as three round burst) capability available with a single trigger pull. The AR version sold to the civilian market are semi-auto only like other sporting firearms and fires one round with each trigger pull. Civilian versions are no more powerful than other classes of semi-auto platforms used for sporting purposes.
• Chamberings for a variety of different calibers are available for the civilian version where the military only models uses one caliber chambering.
• The AR platform is modular allowing owners to change uppers or lowers. (Actually though the military version is modular too, its just that the military doesn't allow these things to be changed at will like owners of the civilain version can do.)
• AR rifles sold to the civilian market are NOT "assault weapons" or "assault rifles." An assault rifle is or has fully automatic (or has automatic type fire such as three round burst) capability available with a single trigger pull. The AR version sold to the civilian market are semi-auto only like other sporting firearms and fires one round with each trigger pull. Civilian versions are no more powerful than other classes of semi-auto platforms used for sporting purposes.
• Chamberings for a variety of different calibers are available for the civilian version where the military only models uses one caliber chambering.
• The AR platform is modular allowing owners to change uppers or lowers. (Actually though the military version is modular too, its just that the military doesn't allow these things to be changed at will like owners of the civilain version can do.)
Due to these differences, the civilian AR platform is on par with other types and styles of semi-auto platforms used for sporting purposes in civilian market and ownership, thus the campaign by NSSF to distinguish between the military and civilian versions by using the term "Modern Sporting Rifle". The term is intended to get away from and counter the falsely emotional and uneducated based preception stigma used by anti-gun groups that the civilian AR version is also a military type assault rifle simply because it follows the same basics of style. The term "Modern Sporting Rifle" for the civilian AR platform is also intended for public education purposes in respect to the differences. Thus enters the "use distinction preception in relation to application" part of the short definition of "Modern Sporting Rifle"
Basic design, engineering, structure, style, operation, parts, manufacturer methods and materials remain essentially the same between the civilian "AR" model designation and the military "M" model designation except for those things which are intended for military only models.
The Sig's, Colts, S&W, are all AR platforms derived from and adhering in some manner to military/mil-spec standards and/or style and have changes or features which are more attractive or applicapable to the civilian market but do not include military only model function or parts. When the term "Modern Sporting Rifle" is applied to them its marketing and not a seperate type of new firearm class that magically appeared.
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Yep but Smith is the only one that advertises 1MOA barrels out of the ones you listed...and when Smith is not building Mil-Spec rifles that kinda blows all that out of the water. And when you look up the specifications for a mil spec AR they spec at 2 to 2.5MOA barrels. Smith doesnt Smith is building Modern Sporting Rifles to modern material specs, the pieces may be the same size as the pieces the emulate but the materials are better, the tolerances are tighter and they ARE NOT made to 2 to 2.5MOA accuracy. Where as the S&W15PC is guaranteed to be 1MOA, Colts, and Sigs and Armalites are not. I happen to like the term Modern Sporting Rifle...it is there to keep the mil-spec people from getting their panties in a bunch!!!
some of us like rifles that will shoot less than 1MOA and are not made to loose specifications. So if the prancing pony wanted you to go somewhere and drink the koolaid you would follow them blindly off of a cliff because it has the same insignia as a Ferrari. I have looked up the specs for a Mil-Spec AR and Foxtrot is right they are a 3MOA platform. Not near accurate enough for a hunting rifle. Smith turned a loose rattletrap rifle into an accurate hunting rifle. Not something made for human sized targets.....
The M&P 15 lower will generally work with the BCM upper, although the PC aready has a pretty good barrel to begin with that the BCM upper may not beat. Barrel length of 16 vs 18 inch, if 16 inch satifies your need the 16 inch, if 18 inch satisfies your need then 18 inch, it depends on your needs. But if you consider 18 inch then have you considered 20 inch and a SPR Mod configuration?
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Both are nice rifles but i'd perfer the S&W over the Sig. If it were a handgun i'd go with the Sig (but most likely a Glock which is my favorite) over the S&W handgun
Gunslinger808
Member
Any AR/M class rifle I've ever shot was a 1MOA rifle when in good repair.
Especially taking into account it's a 14.5 inch barrel.
Considering the Marine Q course is 500m on a human size target with iron sights, I really think that statement is a little off.
Especially taking into account it's a 14.5 inch barrel.
OK here is the complete TM on Mil-Spec M4A1's. If you read all the way through you will see that the accuracy required to be a milspec rifle at 94.1 meters is a 10 shot group within a a certain target area. Which basically is a human torso. it is not even 3MOA. I just contacted a very close family member who is SpecOps. he gave me this link. As far as special handpicked ammo (BS) he has access to full auto glocks and full auto SBR's and the latest and greatest of our military weapons. If you read this link you will see that for mil-spec AR's they dont even require 5MOA it just has to hit within the size of a human torso. It even gives allowable failure rates which are a lot lower than I thought they would be. So when the mil-spec gang starts talking just point them at this link....It is the mil specs.
http://www.biggerhammer.net/ar15/milspec/MIL-C-71186_(AR).pdf
http://www.biggerhammer.net/ar15/milspec/MIL-C-71186_(AR).pdf
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Gunslinger I do not want to offend you but I never had a 1MOA rifle when I was in the corps. the only 1MOA rifles we had were used by the battalion shooting team. I dont know when you were in, we didnt have meters we had yards and the human torso was a big human. But read the above link and see that all the rifle has to do is hit the target with the sights centered. There are no MOA requirements. The individual manufacturers advertise their accuracy when selling to the civilian market, or do not touch it at all... We also did not have 14.5" barrels.
Hmmmm... nope, I hate to burst your bubble but did you actually read and understand that document? Just in case you didn't, it says:
"3.4.6 Tarqetinq and accuracy. A series of 10 rounds fired from each carbine at a range of 91.4 meters shall be within the extreme spread and targeting area (heavy outline) specified in Figure I when the front and rear sights are set as follows. The normal rear sight peep (sight rotated fully rearward) shall be used with the rear sight set centrally in the slot for windage within plus or minus twelve (12) clicks. The top edge of the front sight post flange shall be set flush to .030 inch below the bottom surface of the front sight slot. Ammunition shall be Government standard M855, 5.56MM ball cartridges conforming to Drawing 9342868 and shall have been certified by the Government to be of a quality that will have an average horizontal and vertical standard deviation of 3.4 inches to 4.0 inches at 600 yards as measured in accordance with MIL-C-63989."
That is not an accuracy standard. Notice how that section is titled "Tarqetinq and accuracy", do you understand the difference between them? If you did you would realize that paragraph is not for accuracy, its for the maximum un-zero'd extream at which targeting can still be accomplished and still have a chance of hitting the target. In other words its the maximum allowed for the weapon to remain acceptable and in service, beyond that and the weapon is not acceptable.
Those "specs" are for extream spread at that specific distance when sights are approximately at mechanical zero, not actual zero, for checking serviceability/acceptability not accuracy at actual zero. That means within the maximum extream to remain in service with an un-zero'd weapon, but at mechanical zero approximately, to hit, with 10 rounds fired, within the man sized target kill zone deviation of +/- 18 inches from center mass (which is why they tell you to aim center mass). Its spec'd that way so that any inexperienced person with basic skills who picks up the weapon that has not been zero'd can use a weapon at mechanical zero and have a chance of putting at least one round out of 10 fired on target (which is one of the reasons why everyone in the military fires the weapon in basic training as a minimum, so if they never receive more weapons training and experience they will have at least a very basic skill set). Its the lowest common denominator principal. There is something else you obviously didn't notice about this, i'll give you two hints - its in the last sentence and 1 MOA at 100 yards is 1.047 inch.
Oh, by the way, its not a 10 shot group, its 10 rounds irrespective of grouping. Its a series of 10 rounds, not 10 rounds for zero. In other words indiscriminate fire (e.g. "spray and pray").
Gunslinger808 is correct. An M-4 platform in good repair can do 1 MOA.
As for your other intentionally false and insulting post, pure rubbish.
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